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#11 Nov 06, 2017 10:59 pm

New Historian
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Re: Mass killings in USA

And what about gun shows? Have cash: buy gun.

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#12 Nov 06, 2017 11:06 pm

Real Distwalker
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Re: Mass killings in USA

See?  That just isn't true.  Every dealer at every gun show must do a background check on every sale.   It is the law.

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#13 Nov 07, 2017 4:07 am

New Historian
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Re: Mass killings in USA

The law is clearly ineffectual then, isn't it? Just been talking to my nephew-in-law (is there such a thing?), who's ex-USMC, and says it is easy-easy to get around the few controls that exist at gun shows, and even easier to buy guns by private sale. Willing buyer, willing seller, cash in hand = deal done.

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#14 Nov 07, 2017 7:20 am

Real Distwalker
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Re: Mass killings in USA

Yes, the law is easy to get around.  That's the problem.  Anyone willing to engage in murder is certainly willing to violate gun laws.

You act like there is an easy solution.  You act like we could just snap our fingers and make hundreds of millions of guns disappear.  You act like the Constitution is meaningless.  Not just the Second Amendment but the Fourth Amendment rights regarding property and search and seizure.  The only way I can imagine that guns could be made to disappear in the US is through police state tactics, disregard for the Constitution and near-civil war, blood-in-the-streets confiscation battles.

One thing I hate about the worst of the Trumpanzees is that they think every complex problem as a simple answer if only someone had the guts to execute on it.  Every drunken redneck can solve the national debt, for example, with a few marks on the back of a cocktail napkin.

You are acting like that with gun control.  It wouldn't be possible to make all the guns disappear and the road to trying to do it would go through mountains of corpses that makes the current bloody toll look trivial.   Even when the mass graves had been filled and guns were gone, the result would probably result in an emboldened criminal class and a sharp upturn in other types of violent crime against a disarmed population.

The answers aren't easy, they aren't obvious and most aren't even viable.  That's the problem.

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#15 Nov 07, 2017 9:36 am

Expat
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Re: Mass killings in USA

New Historian wrote:
Expat wrote:

It is true that were guns not so easily available in the good old US of A 80 odd people would still be alive, and a couple of hundred might not be injured.

On the other side of the scales there may well be hundreds if not thousands who have been saved because either Law officials or civilians have interjected themselves into potentially violent or fatal situations. These events will probably never be picked up by the press, as a none event doesn't quite make the headlines.

It is worth a mention that the killing spree of this last deranged person was cut short by an armed citizen. More lives may have been lost were it not for him.

There are definitely two sides to the gun debate, and I think there is merit in both sides. What I as a none American strongly believe is that the Government need to grow balls and work towards limiting gun ownership. Just wanting a gun, and not having done anything illegal should not be the criteria for creating an arsenal.

As many will know I am not against gun ownership, but there needs to be more regulation. If not, despite the current 270 million in circulation at some point one Government or another will be forced to find ways to curtail the currently stupid 2nd amendment. Better to get on top of the problem before that happens, as is often the case the many will pay for the sins of the few.

The reason for the 2nd amendment has long since faded, The Red Coats are no longer coming.

"80 odd people"? Why so selective? How about THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS? As for background checks, they really worked a treat in this case, didn't they?

Check the subject line. We were primarily discussing the latest sicko's.  The last one being well sick, wandering around finishing people on the ground, and killing infants as they cried.

We were not talking about ALL killings... for which there are a large number per year. Some of which were legal and or justified. The majority being as a result of criminal activity, meaning the guns were probably obtained illegally and then used in the completion of a criminal act. As RD states career criminals are not going to be too worries about trying to buy a gun at a store... In fact, if already convicted they would be precluded from doing so.

The main use for legally held weapons apart from sport is either self defense, suicide, and even more unfortunately murder of spouses in domestic disputes. If we are talking domestic, then guns may have been used, but in a rage knives strangling, or blunt force trauma could all have been substituted, and probably would have been had the gun not been available.

Last edited by Expat (Nov 07, 2017 9:39 am)

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#16 Nov 07, 2017 1:20 pm

Real Distwalker
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Re: Mass killings in USA

If you back out all gun murders in the US and only look at non-gun homicide (knives, clubs, poison, etc.) the US still has a higher homicide rate than most European countries.  In other words, the US is more violent than, say, Poland even without guns. 

The question then is, why is the US so murderous.  The answer might be disturbing.

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#17 Nov 07, 2017 2:10 pm

Vanni
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Re: Mass killings in USA

It all revolves around what we think reality and life are about.

Life and reality being exposed to us as a fate, as a way of living set into stone, which we cannot change. To which we are subjected. With its inexorable laws of nature, including predation and violence, and there is nothing we can do about.

Add to that the movies which glorify violence and condition us since our most tender childhood by giving us the message "this is the only way this situation can be resolved" ...

... and we are up for yet another round of "it", as we are keeping "it" alive by our own choices and actions.

We can repeat "it", once, twice, ten times, a hundred times, a thousand times, as long as: at each new opportunity we confirm "it" and give "it" new life. Until ...

Until ...

... we start understanding life in fact only as an opportunity for our choices, here just to allow us to bring out the ultimate from the deepest within ourselves.

Granted: it takes a lot. It takes our utmost.

And, after innumerable cycles of repetition, when something in us reaches a point where it is thoroughly sick and tired and cannot believe in this violence and conditions of living any more, too tired to even try yet another time ... and restart the same old stale cycle yet another time ... From the single moment on we have made the choice expressing our higher nature:

we can go ahead in different circumstances or/and realities, at the level of our finally successful new response to Life.

We discover that they existed all along and were all along ready to welcome us, from the moment on we raise ourselves at their level and call them forth from within ourselves by our tastes, attitudes, choices and actions.

There are much, much happier, peaceful and loving conditions of living in the Universe. With laws each conveying ever more purely the Divine at the origin of all Life. Being reached by our transforming ourselves and raising ourselves to such levels of frequency and reality. Thanks to our responses, thanks to what we choose to promote, to nurture, to support, as much within ourselves as in all concerned. So why not reaching for something that truly makes not just us, but everyone / everything involved happy?

Then it makes sense to find another response, one that manifests the highest in us and in the Universe, one that humbly, devotedly calls the name of Love  - or of God, if you want - one that allows us to experience a life vibrating on the frequency which we finally succeeded in emitting - in this discussed case by our saying one last time "NO" to violence. Even in response to it.

Last edited by Vanni (Nov 07, 2017 2:24 pm)

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#18 Nov 08, 2017 12:14 am

Expat
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Re: Mass killings in USA

Real Distwalker wrote:

If you back out all gun murders in the US and only look at non-gun homicide (knives, clubs, poison, etc.) the US still has a higher homicide rate than most European countries.  In other words, the US is more violent than, say, Poland even without guns. 

The question then is, why is the US so murderous.  The answer might be disturbing.

I go with Vanni to a certain extent.

I have long felt the slide into depravity in the movies.. Mostly American, but not exclusively so has subliminally created a like for like mentality. It takes down some of the "normal" barriers because the barriers have been taken down many times a week on TV, and as many times as you want on streamed media. It is a learned condition. Where talking like a punk gangster and strutting around like a peacock will get you into situations you may find it hard to back out of.

Vis a Vis Donald Trump.

Regrettably where America goes Britain follows.... at one point we were only talking about white goods like washing machines and fridges and being 20 to 30 years behind. Now because of instant access WiFi kids and older people are mimicking things in 5 minutes never mind 5 years.

Obviously I do not support the extreme restrictions of the Islamic extremists, but I can understand their wish to reduce decadence. I cannot count the number of movies where for almost no reason at all we see some naked or almost naked woman bouncing around on a man in a bed, or being bounced off the wall or dumped on the edge of a table... Apart for a few 12 year old's who haven't yet pulled a train most of us know what it's all about, and don't need an A to Z of sex acts.

Likewise gratuitous violence with as much blood and gore..... never mind that it done by video editing instead pf splashing ketchup around as they used to do.... it still glorifies and encourages violence in those with little else to study.

Combine that with an affluence that most Americans don't seem to realise they have, which is slowly but surely likewise reaching Britain and Europe, and we have those who during the week are stock brokers, and at the weekend become drunken yobs on a Friday night, and football hooligans on the Saturday.

We used to have a major war every 25 years or so which culled the population, and gave the youth something to do. We have been basically at peace now since the 50's in the UK, and 80's in America, (kinda forgot the 2 Gulf Wars) and the youth have become the "Wild Ones" of the movies.

Still of DT has his way we shall be on track soon enough. I can almost feel the heat signature of the missiles flying over.

Last edited by Expat (Nov 08, 2017 12:17 am)

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#19 Nov 08, 2017 12:36 am

New Historian
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Re: Mass killings in USA

"Regrettably where America goes Britain follows"

That's just not true. Britain does not have a gun culture, Britain does not have a hateful, divisive political culture, Britain is far more inclusive and tolerant than America, race relations in Britain are far superior to that in the USA, I could go on....

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#20 Nov 08, 2017 12:45 am

New Historian
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Re: Mass killings in USA

Mass shootings are becoming an epidemic:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41890277

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