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#11 Nov 16, 2017 10:14 pm

Calypso
Active

Re: Reparations: Will the Caribbean be as Successful as the Jews?

New Historian wrote:

Oh please, Cameron's going away present to the Caribbean, given at the same time he told the Jamaican parliament that they should forget about slavery and "move on". Yes it's easy for him to move on, the UK government gave his grandpappy billions to ease him on his way, meanwhile Jamaica still bears the social and psychological scars of the dehumanizing experience of slavery.

Half UK's "aid" goes on consultants, most of whom just happened to be - you guessed it, British. Grenada is set to "receive" US$40 million from Cameron's "gift", well that's certainly an improvement on how much UK gave Grenada in the preceding 10 years, which amounts to one fat zilch. Oh no I tell a lie sorry, in 2016 UK gave Grenada the grand total of .... 300,000 pounds. Wow! Don't spend it all at once guys! Yes massa, thank you suh!

In 2016 the UK gave the Caribbean 41.7 million pounds in aid (ODA), down from 57 million in 2013. Of that 41.7 million "aid", 28.5 went to Montserrat, which technically isn't "overseas aid", is it, because it's theirs: a colony. So for the "free" Caribbean, UK ODA was all of 13 million pounds in 2016.

And how much did the UK plunder from the Caribbean during slavery again? How many untold billions, that built up Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol and London? Oh please, don't make me vomit.





https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s … -2017b.pdf


https://s8.postimg.org/gq6ojcf0x/Caribbean_UK_ODA.jpg




If Grenada, Jamaica and any of the Caribbean who the UK and America have given money to should struck oil,  what will be the bargain they have to make with those countries? Usually the price they'd pay will be higher than the money given to them.  When Greeks bear gifts, the price is usually too high!

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#12 Nov 16, 2017 10:47 pm

New Historian
Active

Re: Reparations: Will the Caribbean be as Successful as the Jews?

"If Grenada, Jamaica and any of the Caribbean who the UK and America have given money to should struck oil,  what will be the bargain they have to make with those countries? Usually the price they'd pay will be higher than the money given to them.  When Greeks bear gifts, the price is usually too high!"

True: beware of Trojan Horses bearing "gifts" (ie aid).

But now the paradigm has shifted, it's not our ex-colonial masters who we need to fear - the real threat comes from The East!

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#13 Nov 17, 2017 6:21 am

Calypso
Active

Re: Reparations: Will the Caribbean be as Successful as the Jews?

New Historian wrote:

"If Grenada, Jamaica and any of the Caribbean who the UK and America have given money to should struck oil,  what will be the bargain they have to make with those countries? Usually the price they'd pay will be higher than the money given to them.  When Greeks bear gifts, the price is usually too high!"

True: beware of Trojan Horses bearing "gifts" (ie aid).

But now the paradigm has shifted, it's not our ex-colonial masters who we need to fear - the real threat comes from The East!


Wrong! We are closer to them than the East. We've had a complicated past pf exploitation with them and not with the East . The East will emerged, but I don't think as a super power.  Besides, they haven't had the chance to pump money into our economy as they have done in the past. They'll think that we owe them something in return  because of the petty cash they've given us to stay afloat.

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#14 Nov 17, 2017 6:37 am

Expat
Active

Re: Reparations: Will the Caribbean be as Successful as the Jews?

So, everything has to be in the last couple of years? Like I said there will have been all kinds of activity long before electronic records make tracing facts easy.

One of Grenada's, and the Caribbeans problems is economies of scale. Businesses that ONLY focus on the home market will never set the World alight as the customer base is so small.

Businesses like Bryden and Minors that have reached out, are getting bigger by the day.

Grenada has screwed its off shore potential, so will struggle to be another Bermuda.

There are lots of little countries and big ones selling the kind of stuff the agriculture industry provides, we have too few minerals to manufacture, and the import export duties make assembly futile.

I guess a large criticism is that a peoples have been deposited in a place with very small growth potential. But ask almost any Grenadian, and they will say Grenada is a Paradise... so ... I dunno.

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#15 Nov 17, 2017 8:32 pm

Calypso
Active

Re: Reparations: Will the Caribbean be as Successful as the Jews?

Expat wrote:

So, everything has to be in the last couple of years? Like I said there will have been all kinds of activity long before electronic records make tracing facts easy.

One of Grenada's, and the Caribbeans problems is economies of scale. Businesses that ONLY focus on the home market will never set the World alight as the customer base is so small.

Businesses like Bryden and Minors that have reached out, are getting bigger by the day.

Grenada has screwed its off shore potential, so will struggle to be another Bermuda.

There are lots of little countries and big ones selling the kind of stuff the agriculture industry provides, we have too few minerals to manufacture, and the import export duties make assembly futile.

I guess a large criticism is that a peoples have been deposited in a place with very small growth potential. But ask almost any Grenadian, and they will say Grenada is a Paradise... so ... I dunno.

Our capacity to expand is indeed too small. but we could have done far better. We have never been a high  commercial  nation. We have bauxite but Australia now leads the way. We were exploited and negotiated out of bigger profit by more savvy nations. Even when we were still a colony of England and was the lead producers of banana in the entire world, England took a chunk of our profit, leaving us starving. Wipe out our debt and  set us free.

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#16 Nov 17, 2017 8:54 pm

New Historian
Active

Re: Reparations: Will the Caribbean be as Successful as the Jews?

Calypso if you could quantify the economic cost of crime in Jamaica, you'd cry! Jamaica could be doing SO MUCH better, but remains trapped in the cycle of Persistent Poverty (a great book by my old Econ lecturer George Beckford - G-Beck).

Expat Grenada must be pretty idyllic, because thousands of people like you and me seem to end up staying there, despite all the frustrations lol! You're right, I firmly believe that if you gave every Grenadian in Grenada a green card, most of them wouldn't take it - or if they did, they'd be back in Grenada before 2 years was out lol! And don't fool yourself: Britain's "aid" to the Caribbean is there, but it is hardly significant or transformative; not like the negative transformatory effects of 400 years of slavery has been.

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#17 Nov 17, 2017 9:13 pm

Calypso
Active

Re: Reparations: Will the Caribbean be as Successful as the Jews?

New Historian wrote:

Calypso if you could quantify the economic cost of crime in Jamaica, you'd cry! Jamaica could be doing SO MUCH better, but remains trapped in the cycle of Persistent Poverty (a great book by my old Econ lecturer George Beckford - G-Beck).

Expat Grenada must be pretty idyllic, because thousands of people like you and me seem to end up staying there, despite all the frustrations lol! You're right, I firmly believe that if you gave every Grenadian in Grenada a green card, most of them wouldn't take it - or if they did, they'd be back in Grenada before 2 years was out lol! And don't fool yourself: Britain's "aid" to the Caribbean is there, but it is hardly significant or transformative; not like the negative transformatory effects of 400 years of slavery has been.


Crime and poverty in Jamaica is damned awful Grenada looks much better. We used to be a thriving island back in the 70s. What happened.? Bad choices made by our politicians. I will be going soon. I do not go back often but I'd like to see it one more time again. I don't mind retiring to Dominica. I'd like to die in the Caribbean!

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#18 Nov 17, 2017 9:38 pm

New Historian
Active

Re: Reparations: Will the Caribbean be as Successful as the Jews?

Jamaica was thriving in the seventies? I'm afraid you've got to look back further than that to see Jamaica "thriving"; I'd say the sixties was as close as Jamaica got to its Golden Age, still high on independence and not yet mired in crime and poverty.


From the very beginning, I was a Manley fan. He first came into power in March 1972, not long after I arrived in Jamaica, as a naively optimistic eighteen year old. For us young people, Michael Manley was a welcome change, from the stuffiness and hypocrisy of the established political order. With the benefit of hindsight, Manley may indeed have destroyed the economy, divided the nation along political lines and driven away its upper crust of capitalist money-makers; but he also made Jamaica think. For the first time, Jamaicans were forced to confront a plethora of deep, complex social, political and racial issues, which had been conveniently swept under generations of carpets.

I will never forget Manley wrapping the BBC interviewer into knots, on the West’s unfair terms of trade: “Twenty years ago we had to export twenty tons of our sugar, to buy one of your tractors. Today, we have to export a hundred tons of sugar, just to buy that same tractor. Now, you tell me, is that fair?”

Half of Jamaica loved the ground he walked on; the other half wanted to spit on his grave. This was the intense, sometimes murderous passion that Jamaican politics aroused, in the seventies. There was no middle ground, no undecided voters. You were either PNP or JLP, socialist or labourite, friend or enemy, alive or dead.

Resign.jpg

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#19 Nov 18, 2017 2:57 am

Calypso
Active

Re: Reparations: Will the Caribbean be as Successful as the Jews?

Many people were indeed a fan of Michael Manley.  He  'gave the power to the people' as he said he would when he came to power in '72.  He established the minimum wage and  gave a lot of land to the poor to cultivate. In the early seventies he made significant progress.  You must be about 63 years old now so you must remember much better than me. Then he became too chummy with Cuba as the height of the 'Cold War'. the US didn't like that and began to cause problem. Manley's reign started out with a positive light but when sour. You see, I don't like the way political parties in the Caribbean is set up. You have two leaders of opposition parties who do not change so fresh and innovative ideas cannot emerge. A Prime minister must serve for only two terms and that's it! The violence started later and primarily with Edward Seaga and his control of Tivoli Gardens. I vividly remember politics in Jamaica as being very violent. There would be early curfews. I remember an acquaintance of mine brother got killed. He was walking in JLP's territory and was accosted  by two thugs. He was later asked which party did he belonged to and was cut up to pieces. I was told in the 7th grade that they only identified him by the rubber bands we was wearing on an arm. These things should  not have been!

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#20 Nov 18, 2017 8:14 am

Dancer
Active

Re: Reparations: Will the Caribbean be as Successful as the Jews?

Calypso wrote:

Many people were indeed a fan of Michael Manley.  He  'gave the power to the people' as he said he would when he came to power in '72.  He established the minimum wage and  gave a lot of land to the poor to cultivate. In the early seventies he made significant progress.  You must be about 63 years old now so you must remember much better than me. Then he became too chummy with Cuba as the height of the 'Cold War'. the US didn't like that and began to cause problem. Manley's reign started out with a positive light but when sour. You see, I don't like the way political parties in the Caribbean is set up. You have two leaders of opposition parties who do not change so fresh and innovative ideas cannot emerge. A Prime minister must serve for only two terms and that's it! The violence started later and primarily with Edward Seaga and his control of Tivoli Gardens. I vividly remember politics in Jamaica as being very violent. There would be early curfews. I remember an acquaintance of mine brother got killed. He was walking in JLP's territory and was accosted  by two thugs. He was later asked which party did he belonged to and was cut up to pieces. I was told in the 7th grade that they only identified him by the rubber bands we was wearing on an arm. These things should  not have been!


.................

Well Calypso you hit the nail on the head   .....

>> I don't like the way political parties are set up in the Caribbean.... <<
When in the Caribbean , I go to 'ridings' meetings of this political party ,  this friend invites  ,  .. " coming over Dancer ? I go, sometimes.

Talking politics with him and others , my pet difference is the stagnant political leadership set-up.  The 'Civil Service' model .
The ones who are in the party  the  longest gets the job.  We seem to be suffering because of that old set-up.
But ... some are saying that has to go , because of the reason you stated.
New ideas have a hard time being tried.

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