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#21 Sep 22, 2018 11:57 am

Vanni
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Re: SHOULD I BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENNED WHEN AH WAS 17?

Just a few key words - and they can be a total lie - can let loose the emotions of those without control, and the minds of those who blindly trust and do not inquire. It can sway them into whichever direction is desired on behalf of those who know how to manipulate. It's a bit of a messed up science. It's being constantly used in politics as well as in advertisement, where I am finding that they are putting together increasingly more absurd and meaningless words (and images), but words with an impact, appearing to be hitting a soft spot in some of us, and enough people run for that stuff, so it makes it worth risking to be considered as a lunatic roll

One point that people seem to ignore is that to have the means and ability to exploit does not mean that it's healthy nor fair to do so.

Frankly, it feels like our world is in urgent need of inner guidance.

Last edited by Vanni (Sep 22, 2018 11:58 am)

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#22 Sep 22, 2018 12:03 pm

Real Distwalker
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Re: SHOULD I BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENNED WHEN AH WAS 17?

Slice wrote:

SHOULD I BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENNED WHEN AH WAS 17?

If you did something heinous to someone else, yes, you should be blamed. 

You shouldn't be blamed, however, for accusations of behavior that you categorically deny engaging and for which there is no proof or even evidence that it occurred.   The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.  A man with a lifetime record of sterling character and many, many character witnesses should not be dragged down and destroyed but an accusation that comes out of the blue, without evidence, without an oath and without cross examination.  The very idea that it should be any other way is preposterous!

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#23 Sep 22, 2018 8:02 pm

houston
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Re: SHOULD I BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENNED WHEN AH WAS 17?

We have taken a huge step backwards with the court of public opinion. Guilty until proven innocent these days.
The admission of guilt and boasting about it is however not a good plan for escaping the consequences of the law of common human sense.

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#24 Sep 23, 2018 2:12 am

GMW
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Re: SHOULD I BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENNED WHEN AH WAS 17?

Real Distwalker wrote:
Slice wrote:

SHOULD I BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENNED WHEN AH WAS 17?

If you did something heinous to someone else, yes, you should be blamed. 

You shouldn't be blamed, however, for accusations of behavior that you categorically deny engaging and for which there is no proof or even evidence that it occurred.   The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.  A man with a lifetime record of sterling character and many, many character witnesses should not be dragged down and destroyed but an accusation that comes out of the blue, without evidence, without an oath and without cross examination.  The very idea that it should be any other way is preposterous!

This woman have nothing to gain in this. B4 this story the judge had already proven himself to be a pathological liar who would say anything to advance the causes of the NRA and the anti-abortion advocates. In fact he's being a coach at teaching others how to lie or give non-answers just to get on the bench.

And let us not forget that you were totally on board with birtherism even after it was proven to be a racist, malicious hoax.

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#25 Sep 23, 2018 9:00 am

Real Distwalker
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Re: SHOULD I BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENNED WHEN AH WAS 17?

The four people who she said were at the party with her - including one of her lifelong friends - said that they were not only not at any such party, but that they they never saw Kavanaugh behave like that.   She hasn't provided a shred of evidence that it happened and the burden of proof is on her, not on him.

Not only was I not on board with birtherism, I always said from the start that it was nonsense. He was born in Hawaii and even if he was born in Kenya, it wouldn't matter.  I think he'd still be qualified as the son of an American citizen. You have me confused with someone else.

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#26 Sep 23, 2018 10:59 am

GMW
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Re: SHOULD I BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENNED WHEN AH WAS 17?

>>Not only was I not on board with birtherism, I always said from the start that it was nonsense. He was born in Hawaii and even if he was born in Kenya, it wouldn't matter.  I think he'd still be qualified as the son of an American citizen. You have me confused with someone else.<<

OK, I take that back. My bad.

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#27 Sep 23, 2018 5:55 pm

gripe
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Re: SHOULD I BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENNED WHEN AH WAS 17?

houston, I stayed away from this thread to this point, because it is no different from the one started some days ago by New Historian (NH) found here: http://spiceislandertalkshop.com/oldtal … hp?id=2322

Interestingly, some of the apologists for Kavanaugh, such as RD, copped out at the end of that NH thread and refused to respond to my last post there --  http://spiceislandertalkshop.com/oldtal … d=2322&p=2 --  where I highlighted (a) the hypocrisy of those apologists for Kavanaugh by their refusal to respond to my recollection that they did not seem to have had any sympathy for Cosby and his prosecution and (b) that Kavanaugh was refused a rating by the New York Bar because they consider Kavanaugh to be untruthful and lacking credibility.

Slice, absent from the NH prior thread, has rephrased the issue that NH raised but it is the same old clothes, the same old khaki pants, with some of the same cheerleaders, especially RD.

Just let fairness prevail!

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#28 Sep 23, 2018 6:14 pm

gripe
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Re: SHOULD I BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENNED WHEN AH WAS 17?

According to RD, "The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused." That is a narrow conception of burdens of proof. Yes, "burdens". That needs to be emphasized because there is something called burden shifting: simply, initially, based on RD's argument, the burden will be Ms. Ford's to present proof supporting her allegations. But, then, once she does so, the burden shifts to Mr. Kavanaugh, to dispell the evidence presented against him. RD has obviously seen or heard that Mr. Kavanaugh took the opportunity to deny the allegations against him. That is properly the way in which these matters unfold. Let Mr. Kavanaugh not say or present any counter arguments to Ms. Ford's accusations and it will not be helpful to his cause (especially in a courtroom if he is, ultimately (a possibility), prosecuted for the alleged crime).

You, RD, may want to read the following:

"The burden of proof is always on the person who brings a claim in a dispute. It is often associated with the Latin maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, a translation of which in this context is: "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges."[2]

The party that does not carry the burden of proof carries the benefit of assumption of being correct, they are presumed to be correct, until the burden shifts after presentation of evidence by the party bringing the action. An example is in an American criminal case, where there is a presumption of innocence by the defendant. Fulfilling the burden of proof effectively captures the benefit of assumption, passing the burden of proof off to another party." Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(law)

I emphasize: "Fulfilling the burden of proof effectively captures the benefit of assumption, passing the burden of proof off to another party."

Last edited by gripe (Sep 23, 2018 6:17 pm)

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#29 Sep 23, 2018 6:43 pm

Real Distwalker
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Re: SHOULD I BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENNED WHEN AH WAS 17?

It looks like your post supports my argument perfectly, gripe.  I am glad you agree.  The burden of proof is on the accuser and she hasn't done a single thing to fulfill that burden.  She hasn't achieved 1% of fulfilling that burden of proof.

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#30 Sep 23, 2018 7:29 pm

gripe
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Re: SHOULD I BE BLAMED FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENNED WHEN AH WAS 17?

RD, it is good to be on the same page on the initial phase of proving an allegation. I did not, however, see you acknowledge that the burden eventually shifts once that initial burden is met/satisfied.

Why are the GOP folks not allowing Ms. Ford to have Mark Judge included -- subpoenaed -- as a witness to testify at the hearing? Also, why disallow the investigation that Ms. Ford has requested?

In the heralded truth-finding system that exists in the U.S., there should be no efforts to frustrate a person proving their allegations. The same motivations that say we have to honor the idea that a person is innocent until proven guilty, should also be the guide in letting the accuser have the reasonable means to prove their allegations. Fair is fair; always!

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