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#11 Sep 26, 2019 6:48 am

Slice
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Totally agree with you, but here is the problem, is Grenada better today as compared with the REVO days? My say it is much, much worst. I m not sure if that was what America had in mind.  Grenada is in ah very bad way. The American hospital ship visited Grenada last week and from what I was told is that the line to get Medical attention, was as long as from Baltimore to Grenada.

The argument I had most often in Grenada was comparing the Cuban Medical system to America. Under the Cuiban system atleast, medically Grenadians would of been better off. It erks me when ah hear the stupid things Grenadians are dieing from. The waiting time in the Emergency rooms is outa this world. I was willing to support RD and the invasion, but now what the hell am I supporting, when Grenada is much worst today, than before the REVO. Tiefing Keith and his ministers and the Car dealers are doing great, but 80% of the population are not doing good.

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#12 Sep 26, 2019 9:10 am

Real Distwalker
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Bishop was a Marxist\Leninist to the core.  His conflict with the Coard faction wasn't about whether or not the NJM and Revo were Marxist.  Everyone agreed that it was.  The conflict was how to implement Marxism.  The Coard faction wanted the Central Committee to run the island as a committee.  They were increasingly afraid that Bishop - who was a protege of Castro - was going to follow Castro's play book and set up a personality cult and one-man-rule on the island.

The relationship between the Cubans and Grenadians was far more complex that is generally portrayed.

The Cubans believed any military operation against Grenada would be like the Bay of Pigs or Contras in Nicaragua. They assumed it would be US trained mercenaries and expatriates. They didn't believe it would be the US military.

The Grenadians disagreed and thought the US military would invade. This led to real stress between the PRG and Cuba. Grenadians wanted to disperse their weapons and supplies. They wanted to prepare for an insurgency. They also wanted coastal defense artillery and SAMs. They got none of that because the Cubans wouldn't cooperate.

A major part of the stress leading up to October 19th was the belief by the Coard faction that the Cuban forces on the island were preparing to support a coup by Bishop to establish him as maximum leader. This made Coard and company paranoid as hell and led to Bishop's house arrest.

In 1977 the Marxist MPLA leader Neto Agostino in Angola was fearful that he was losing power to the Marxist ruling party in that government. He sent a request for help to Cuba and Castro sent a few thousand troops to that country to prop him up. Coard and his faction was aware of this and of Bishop's special relationship with Castro. In fact, Bishop had just returned from an unscheduled trip to Havana in mid-October, 1983.

Castro was mad as hell when Bishop was killed and wasn't too inclined to sacrifice too many Cuban lives on the morning of the 25th in a futile attempt to prop up Coard and the RMC.

This notion that Bishop wasn't a Marxist/Leninist is daft.  He definitely was.  He just had conflicts with the other Maxists over doctrine.  This sort of thing has happened again and again in Marxist nations.

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#13 Sep 26, 2019 9:41 am

Slice
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

What was the reason for the invasion?  Was it just because was not happy, that communism was at their back doors or to improve the lifes of Grenadian? What you stated about Maurice is simple wrong. Bishop was not what you and the Americans made him out to be.  The very first meeting after the invasion, the first question that was asked, by Maurice in that meeting, was should an election be called? The answer was no.

The NIM changed from the time Coard entered the party. I was there, I witness most of it. Dix, myself, and ah PADNAH called Squares was along for the ride every day for more than six months prior to the invasion, I know who and what was changed since Coard joined the party.

RD I am not reading any of these in  a book or a manuscript, I was ah eye witness. Yes after the invasion, I sat back and hoped for ah better Grenadian, I even agreed with the invasion, hoping that Grenadians will enjoy the benefits of an American invasion.  I was desperately hoping, we would become America no 25.  Sadly that did not happen.  Grenada is now ah island that only ah few at the top is benefitting from, and those of us that are called JCBs.  The American invasion was not good for Grenadians. The average Grenadian are much worst today than they were right after the invasion.

During visits to my Homeland, I wanted so bad to stay there forever and ever Amen, but I cant, that place need tons of help. On my last visit, I went out to dinner with a sweet lady and I told her my intentions, she looked at me like ah was mad. She said Tony it is not worth giving up your American benefits to assist Grenadians, you will be the one suffering. I hate sitting back and know I can help and wont.

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#14 Sep 26, 2019 9:56 am

Real Distwalker
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Slice wrote:

What was the reason for the invasion?

I just completed a long debate and discussion with people involved at the highest levels.  Here are some bullet points.

- There was no tangible plan to invade prior to October 19th, 1983.  It was the events of that day that resulted in the invasion. 

- It was a panicked call to the US from other Caribbean leaders following Bishop's assassination that first started the planning.

- The US wasn't serious about invading Grenada before October 19th but wanted the Soviets, the Cubans and the Grenadians to believe they were. The threat of invasion would have been destabilizing. It would have forced them to husband resources. It would have sent a message to other Marxist insurgencies that it is a dangerous game.

- Amber and the Amberdines exercise was just telegraphing a threat. In fact, that they named it Amber and the Amberdines was such an in-your-face obvious provocation it was CERTAINLY meant to be seen and understood as a threat.

- Reagan wasn't planning to invade but his March 1983 television address was just meant to make the Cubans, Grenadians, Nicaraguans and Soviets believe he just might. This is a reasonable strategy.

-  It would not have been politically practical to invade to topple the Grenadian Revo. An invasion without the provocation that was the assassination of Bishop and the 24 hour shoot-on-site curfew would have been disastrous.

- Americans would most certainly not have been welcomed by smiling Grenadians wishing them well. They would have been met by an angry populous that definitely wouldn't have seen it as a "rescue mission". They wouldn't have tossed off their uniforms. They would have grabbed their militia weapons and returned fire. Best case, that would have resulted in more Grenadian bodies and probably more American bodies too.

- Then what? Would the US have arrested Maurice Bishop? Would we have reinstalled Eric Gairy? Would we have promoted free elections that would have put Bishop right back in power?

- What about the rest of the Caribbean? What would the other island nations think about a US that invades without tangible provocation?  Nope, without October 19th, there would have been no invasion.

- So what is the bottom line?  October 19th was the event that created an opportunistic invasion.  Why?

- In the wake of the Iranian hostage crisis, Reagan was fearful of an American hostage crisis developing in Grenada.  Yes, it retrospect that seems unlikely but, at the time it didn't.

- It created the opportunity to stop Soviet Bloc expansionism in the Western Hemisphere.

- I don't think it had anything to do with making life better for Grenadians.

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#15 Sep 26, 2019 11:29 am

Dancer
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

AS an outsider ( North American Caribbean Man )  and a person that pays attention to the news/politics
I think that the last 8 sentences is a good assessment  of the  U.S  thinking  at the time of the REVO.

..... and the last sentence  was  BOSS.

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#16 Sep 26, 2019 2:21 pm

Expat
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

I think there is more grey in this than people at the highest levels would be able to take on board, as hawkish thinking in the military is almost a prime requisite. We certainly have seen high ranking politicians that would have us goose stepping into Iran even as I type. America , as I have heard quite a few American pundits say, are not very good at foreign policy, especially when it is a tribal culture like is found in the Middle East.

Grenada had what you could almost call a despot, rather like Mugabe as its first prime minister. Someone who was "allowed" rather like Mugabe to do all kinds of unpleasant things by the UK government, and the World in general for the sake of stability.

Bishop and a few guys tried to get help to get the new yolk off the peoples neck, and the "free World" wouldn't have any of it, so off they go to a willing partner in the Soviet sphere.

Who of course were delighted to be able to expand their boundaries, and create a transporter sized airport to enable military advancement in the region. If I remember correctly the airport was already planned long before the Revo.

If you can't get help from the right, then like it or not you can't stand on the fence, he had to be the man of the moment. and that meant following Marxism, and if you are supposed to be the leader, then you had better be the lead Marxist, or you never know, you might end up standing in front of a firing squad... Oh gosh, that's what happened.

We have to believe it wasn't actually a planned operation, as with such a small location which in reality had quite limited military resources, if it had been a planned invasion as per normal actions, there would have been much better on the ground intelligence, real maps to use, and it wouldn't have been a cluster fk that came good.

Certainly the well being of the general populace never came into the equation, but it sells well if Uncle Sam seems to be a benefactor. Unfortunately for banana republics around the world America has taken it's foot off the gas, and China is filling the void. Yet another Trumpian cock up. Having bankrupted many of his projects, he is whole heartedly doing it to America.

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#17 Sep 26, 2019 2:36 pm

Real Distwalker
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Expat wrote:

Bishop and a few guys tried to get help to get the new yolk off the peoples neck, and the "free World" wouldn't have any of it, so off they go to a willing partner in the Soviet sphere.

That is a persistent myth that doesn't stand up to even a little bit of research.  The NJM was completely aligned with Cuba before the coup of March of 1979.  There was a boat load of arms coming from Cuba to Grenada before the first meeting between any US diplomat and the PRG.

Any meeting between the US and Bishop or any other representative of the PRG was Revo window dressing to appear conciliatory.  The New Jewel Movement was Marxist/Leninist from the world go and there was never any chance whatsoever that there was going to be a warm relationship between the US government and the PRG.

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#18 Sep 26, 2019 5:58 pm

Slice
Active

Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Real Distwalker wrote:
Slice wrote:

What was the reason for the invasion?

I just completed a long debate and discussion with people involved at the highest levels.  Here are some bullet points.

- There was no tangible plan to invade prior to October 19th, 1983.  It was the events of that day that resulted in the invasion. 

- It was a panicked call to the US from other Caribbean leaders following Bishop's assassination that first started the planning.

- The US wasn't serious about invading Grenada before October 19th but wanted the Soviets, the Cubans and the Grenadians to believe they were. The threat of invasion would have been destabilizing. It would have forced them to husband resources. It would have sent a message to other Marxist insurgencies that it is a dangerous game.

- Amber and the Amberdines exercise was just telegraphing a threat. In fact, that they named it Amber and the Amberdines was such an in-your-face obvious provocation it was CERTAINLY meant to be seen and understood as a threat.

- Reagan wasn't planning to invade but his March 1983 television address was just meant to make the Cubans, Grenadians, Nicaraguans and Soviets believe he just might. This is a reasonable strategy.

-  It would not have been politically practical to invade to topple the Grenadian Revo. An invasion without the provocation that was the assassination of Bishop and the 24 hour shoot-on-site curfew would have been disastrous.

- Americans would most certainly not have been welcomed by smiling Grenadians wishing them well. They would have been met by an angry populous that definitely wouldn't have seen it as a "rescue mission". They wouldn't have tossed off their uniforms. They would have grabbed their militia weapons and returned fire. Best case, that would have resulted in more Grenadian bodies and probably more American bodies too.

- Then what? Would the US have arrested Maurice Bishop? Would we have reinstalled Eric Gairy? Would we have promoted free elections that would have put Bishop right back in power?

- What about the rest of the Caribbean? What would the other island nations think about a US that invades without tangible provocation?  Nope, without October 19th, there would have been no invasion.

- So what is the bottom line?  October 19th was the event that created an opportunistic invasion.  Why?

- In the wake of the Iranian hostage crisis, Reagan was fearful of an American hostage crisis developing in Grenada.  Yes, it retrospect that seems unlikely but, at the time it didn't.

- It created the opportunity to stop Soviet Bloc expansionism in the Western Hemisphere.

- I don't think it had anything to do with making life better for Grenadians.

  You did the invasion, then finish the job, make Grenada, America the 25th. The exact same ting happened in Iraq. I tink they the Americans meant well, but corruption is now killing Grenada. I think the sum that was given after the invasion was thirty seven million. It is just not right to do this to Grenada. We need help.

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#19 Sep 26, 2019 6:07 pm

Slice
Active

Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Expat wrote:

I think there is more grey in this than people at the highest levels would be able to take on board, as hawkish thinking in the military is almost a prime requisite. We certainly have seen high ranking politicians that would have us goose stepping into Iran even as I type. America , as I have heard quite a few American pundits say, are not very good at foreign policy, especially when it is a tribal culture like is found in the Middle East.

Grenada had what you could almost call a despot, rather like Mugabe as its first prime minister. Someone who was "allowed" rather like Mugabe to do all kinds of unpleasant things by the UK government, and the World in general for the sake of stability.

Bishop and a few guys tried to get help to get the new yolk off the peoples neck, and the "free World" wouldn't have any of it, so off they go to a willing partner in the Soviet sphere.

Who of course were delighted to be able to expand their boundaries, and create a transporter sized airport to enable military advancement in the region. If I remember correctly the airport was already planned long before the Revo.

If you can't get help from the right, then like it or not you can't stand on the fence, he had to be the man of the moment. and that meant following Marxism, and if you are supposed to be the leader, then you had better be the lead Marxist, or you never know, you might end up standing in front of a firing squad... Oh gosh, that's what happened.

We have to believe it wasn't actually a planned operation, as with such a small location which in reality had quite limited military resources, if it had been a planned invasion as per normal actions, there would have been much better on the ground intelligence, real maps to use, and it wouldn't have been a cluster fk that came good.

Certainly the well being of the general populace never came into the equation, but it sells well if Uncle Sam seems to be a benefactor. Unfortunately for banana republics around the world America has taken it's foot off the gas, and China is filling the void. Yet another Trumpian cock up. Having bankrupted many of his projects, he is whole heartedly doing it to America.

Nicely done. I hate the Chinese being in Grenada, they do not employ Grenadians, they bring down their Chinese and their equipment to do all the work. There is a plan to build Brand new roads from St John to either Grand Anse or St George. It will be a Toll raod, which the Chinese would collect. America needs to finish what it started, they are opening it up for the Chinese, and that should not happen.  You invaded, now claim your prize.

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#20 Sep 27, 2019 8:23 pm

Expat
Active

Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Real Distwalker wrote:
Expat wrote:

Bishop and a few guys tried to get help to get the new yolk off the peoples neck, and the "free World" wouldn't have any of it, so off they go to a willing partner in the Soviet sphere.

That is a persistent myth that doesn't stand up to even a little bit of research.  The NJM was completely aligned with Cuba before the coup of March of 1979.  There was a boat load of arms coming from Cuba to Grenada before the first meeting between any US diplomat and the PRG.

Any meeting between the US and Bishop or any other representative of the PRG was Revo window dressing to appear conciliatory.  The New Jewel Movement was Marxist/Leninist from the world go and there was never any chance whatsoever that there was going to be a warm relationship between the US government and the PRG.

Now I live by what I heard along the way, I see what is put in front of me, and I sell it as it is sold, so I can't put date stamps on interactions, but to the best of my knowledge the myth persists because there is a strong element of truth to it... or in other words, where there is smoke there is fire.

The key point was a Premier who had a mongoose gang making the sky red, and in the process of opposing him they went to the most willing assistant.

If the various forces involved wanted to stay out from eating from a spoiled pot, then the die was cast, and history moved on.

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