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#21 Sep 27, 2019 8:27 pm

Expat
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Slice wrote:
Expat wrote:

I think there is more grey in this than people at the highest levels would be able to take on board, as hawkish thinking in the military is almost a prime requisite. We certainly have seen high ranking politicians that would have us goose stepping into Iran even as I type. America , as I have heard quite a few American pundits say, are not very good at foreign policy, especially when it is a tribal culture like is found in the Middle East.

Grenada had what you could almost call a despot, rather like Mugabe as its first prime minister. Someone who was "allowed" rather like Mugabe to do all kinds of unpleasant things by the UK government, and the World in general for the sake of stability.

Bishop and a few guys tried to get help to get the new yolk off the peoples neck, and the "free World" wouldn't have any of it, so off they go to a willing partner in the Soviet sphere.

Who of course were delighted to be able to expand their boundaries, and create a transporter sized airport to enable military advancement in the region. If I remember correctly the airport was already planned long before the Revo.

If you can't get help from the right, then like it or not you can't stand on the fence, he had to be the man of the moment. and that meant following Marxism, and if you are supposed to be the leader, then you had better be the lead Marxist, or you never know, you might end up standing in front of a firing squad... Oh gosh, that's what happened.

We have to believe it wasn't actually a planned operation, as with such a small location which in reality had quite limited military resources, if it had been a planned invasion as per normal actions, there would have been much better on the ground intelligence, real maps to use, and it wouldn't have been a cluster fk that came good.

Certainly the well being of the general populace never came into the equation, but it sells well if Uncle Sam seems to be a benefactor. Unfortunately for banana republics around the world America has taken it's foot off the gas, and China is filling the void. Yet another Trumpian cock up. Having bankrupted many of his projects, he is whole heartedly doing it to America.

Nicely done. I hate the Chinese being in Grenada, they do not employ Grenadians, they bring down their Chinese and their equipment to do all the work. There is a plan to build Brand new roads from St John to either Grand Anse or St George. It will be a Toll raod, which the Chinese would collect. America needs to finish what it started, they are opening it up for the Chinese, and that should not happen.  You invaded, now claim your prize.

This sounds like the idiotic idea floated to build a southern railway.... who the hell is going to pay tolls here? that simply wont happen, and if it does it will be the quietest road in Grenada.

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#22 Sep 28, 2019 8:11 am

Real Distwalker
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Expat wrote:

Now I live by what I heard along the way, I see what is put in front of me, and I sell it as it is sold...

You are absolutely correct.  It was put in front of you and you were sold something. 

Every record and everyone involved knows the NJM was aligned with Cuba before the March '79 coup.  All of the records show it.  People who were involved said so.  They had already made a deal for arms.

The PRG had one meeting with one US diplomat in the spring of 1979 to put in front of you the myth that they were giving the US a chance and you bought it.  I am sure the PRG wanted good relations with the US but there was no point in which they weren't a socialist organization that wasn't going to be aligned with Cuba, Nicaragua and the Soviet Union. 

Reagan didn't even take office until January of 1981.  Jimmy Carter was president for nearly two years of the Revo.  They had a terrible relationship even with Carter - the man who built his presidency around transferring the Panama Canal to Panama.  By the time Reagan took office, the PRG considered the US the enemy.

You can believe what you want to believe but if you believe that there was ever any intention of the NJM to not align Grenada with Cuba, the Sandinistas and the USSR, well, what you believe is false.  That was the plan since before 1974.

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#23 Sep 28, 2019 9:13 am

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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

So before independence and the period occupied by Gairy, without any knowledge of how bad that ultimately would be?

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#24 Sep 28, 2019 7:43 pm

Real Distwalker
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

The NJM was planning to topple Gairy going back to at least 1974.

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#25 Sep 28, 2019 11:32 pm

Expat
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Yes well 74 was Independance right, and Gairey had only last become premier in August 67, as Blaize was in office from  March until August of that year. Prior to that it was a cockamamie set up where the UK tried to get the Eastern Caribbean States to band together for administration purposes. Ending up with associated Statehood, prior to Independence.

While 1 week can be an eternity in politics, as Conservative leader Boris Johnson might attest, I still find it hard to conceive that there was any intent to overthrow Gairy until he started abusing the people including Bishops Father if I remember correctly.

Maybe you should spend a bit of time on a pin head piece of land where almost everybody is related not by 7 jumps, but by around 2 if so many. The dynamics of this country is so far different from countries like America or Europe where there is room to breath, and an ability do do things without anyone knowing.

Here unless you are a form of hermit like me, most people knew the bus went into the water and how many were on it in less than half an hour.... without it being on the news. Social media picks up the speed, but simple word of mouth moves damn quick here. It is also very polarised. Either you were Gulp. or NJM, if you were a Gairy person you probably got favours, and just like some families will cover up a members wrong doings, so will beneficiaries turn a blind eye, while the other parties people get shafted left right and centre.

Living here is NOTHING like a few weeks detail via Uncle Sam, or even a drop by as a little reminisce. Despite having been tight with the community for around 40 years, it is only living here that has made me aware of how incestuous the place is.... Some times it even works in my favour, and just as much, it has worked against me. One person in the right seat can stymie any plan you might have. Trust me.

There had to be a motive to plan an overthrow, not just a simple oooh I think we'll try Communism for a bit.  It was a polarisation caused by a tyrant Premier.

Lifted from Wiki, Gairy

>>US citizens helped to support the overthrow of Eric Gairy with solidarity movements. One such solidarity movement existed in San Antonio, Texas and was headed by African-American activist Mario Marcel Salas, who was active in his overthrow on a number of levels. <<

I don't suppose Commies do too well in Texas?

https://www.thehistorymakers.org/biogra … rcel-salas

Last edited by Expat (Sep 28, 2019 11:52 pm)

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#26 Sep 29, 2019 9:21 am

Real Distwalker
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

See?  You don't understand the US at all.  Texas as a whole is very conservative but San Antonio and Austin are liberal as hell.  The politics of Mario Marcel Salas are hard left.

Look, believe what you want.  I believe the memoirs of the members of the NJM and the people who took part and they all agree that the NJM was a party hostile to the US from the start.  There was no chance whatsoever that the after the Revo the party wasn't going to be aligned with Cuba.  For any serious historian, this isn't even in question.   

Further, the formation of the NJM party was to radically change the landscape of Grenada.  They were anti-Gairy from the start.  They wanted to oust him via elections and institute a leftist government in Grenada but determined that the elections weren't fair, Gairy couldn't be defeated due to his corruption and that a coup was necessary.

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#27 Sep 29, 2019 9:51 am

Slice
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Expat wrote:

Yes well 74 was Independance right, and Gairey had only last become premier in August 67, as Blaize was in office from  March until August of that year. Prior to that it was a cockamamie set up where the UK tried to get the Eastern Caribbean States to band together for administration purposes. Ending up with associated Statehood, prior to Independence.

While 1 week can be an eternity in politics, as Conservative leader Boris Johnson might attest, I still find it hard to conceive that there was any intent to overthrow Gairy until he started abusing the people including Bishops Father if I remember correctly.

Maybe you should spend a bit of time on a pin head piece of land where almost everybody is related not by 7 jumps, but by around 2 if so many. The dynamics of this country is so far different from countries like America or Europe where there is room to breath, and an ability do do things without anyone knowing.

Here unless you are a form of hermit like me, most people knew the bus went into the water and how many were on it in less than half an hour.... without it being on the news. Social media picks up the speed, but simple word of mouth moves damn quick here. It is also very polarised. Either you were Gulp. or NJM, if you were a Gairy person you probably got favours, and just like some families will cover up a members wrong doings, so will beneficiaries turn a blind eye, while the other parties people get shafted left right and centre.

Living here is NOTHING like a few weeks detail via Uncle Sam, or even a drop by as a little reminisce. Despite having been tight with the community for around 40 years, it is only living here that has made me aware of how incestuous the place is.... Some times it even works in my favour, and just as much, it has worked against me. One person in the right seat can stymie any plan you might have. Trust me.

There had to be a motive to plan an overthrow, not just a simple oooh I think we'll try Communism for a bit.  It was a polarisation caused by a tyrant Premier.

Lifted from Wiki, Gairy

>>US citizens helped to support the overthrow of Eric Gairy with solidarity movements. One such solidarity movement existed in San Antonio, Texas and was headed by African-American activist Mario Marcel Salas, who was active in his overthrow on a number of levels. <<

I don't suppose Commies do too well in Texas?

https://www.thehistorymakers.org/biogra … rcel-salas

Lord man you know your country. I am learning them all over again, and believe from what I have learned so far, you are dead on the money. Like I said before RDs info he got from ah book or some kinda clippings from someway, but the truth is Grenada on the ground. One might be shocked about the amount of information out there that is totally wrong about Grenada.

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#28 Sep 29, 2019 10:00 am

Slice
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Real Distwalker wrote:

See?  You don't understand the US at all.  Texas as a whole is very conservative but San Antonio and Austin are liberal as hell.  The politics of Mario Marcel Salas are hard left.

Look, believe what you want.  I believe the memoirs of the members of the NJM and the people who took part and they all agree that the NJM was a party hostile to the US from the start.  There was no chance whatsoever that the after the Revo the party wasn't going to be aligned with Cuba.  For any serious historian, this isn't even in question.   

Further, the formation of the NJM party was to radically change the landscape of Grenada.  They were anti-Gairy from the start.  They wanted to oust him via elections and institute a leftist government in Grenada but determined that the elections weren't fair, Gairy couldn't be defeated due to his corruption and that a coup was necessary.

Take you side on the Texas example, but the rest you got totally wrong. The NJM, was ah bunch of educated young men who was just returning to Grenada and demanded change.  They had no idea what the hell they were doing, they new for sure, they wanted Gairy out, and was not sure where they were heading.  The NJM became communist, after Coard joined. If they were communist from the start, why did they try the ballot box?

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#29 Sep 29, 2019 3:22 pm

Real Distwalker
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

In the New Jewel Movement's formation manifesto in 1973 they referred to the US as "racist", "imperialist" and "colonialist" and vowed to resist it.

In 1974, The Torchlight, the NJM underground newspaper was calling for the nationalization agriculture and industry.

By 1976, the NJM had a Grenada-Cuba Association. 

In 1977-78 several members of the NJM openly traveled to Cuba for military training.

The Revo coup was on 13 March 79.  On 8 April 1979 Bishop said at a public rally that he would seek arms and aid from Cuba. Less than a month later.  There was only one meeting between the PRG and the US Ambassador prior to that and the US ambassador said he would seek aid for Grenada.  Bishop mocked the offer and said it wasn't enough.

On April 7, there were already Cuban military advisers on the island. On 9 April 1979, the Guyanese ship Jaimito arrived in St. George's harbor.  It was loaded with arms from Cuba that were coordinated for weeks. 

In April 1979, the road between St. Georges and Grenville was closed so the Cubans could help establish a PRA training camp at Grand Etang.

On April 13th, just one month after the Revo coup, Bishop gave his "Backyard Speech" in which he harshly attacked the government of the US as imperialist.  Remember, this was the government of Jimmy Carter.

You can believe whatever you want but, in their own words, statements and actions, the NJM was anti-United States, pro-Cuba and socialist prior to the 13 March 1979 coup.

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#30 Sep 29, 2019 3:38 pm

Real Distwalker
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Re: I posted this on a Facebook site for Urgent Fury vets...

Read in Bishop's own words why they didn't immediately announce they were a Marxist/Leninist party....

That was the mistake, for example, the comrades in Gambia made a few months ago. Remember the Gambia Coup E'tat a few months ago? What was the first thing those comrades did? They say “we are Marxist-Leninists and we have just had a Marxist-Leninist Revolution and we go wipe out the bourgeoisie.” The same day they overthrow them - same day, they didn't even give then three days. So fortunately, NJM had a little more sense than that. And like I said comrades, the first fourteen names were bourgeoisie, big capitalist, petty-bourgeoisie, middle capitalist, peasantry and professional middle strata - that is who made up the People's Revolutionary Government.

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