You are not logged in.

Announcement

Welcome to the one and only Spiceislander Talkshop.

#1 Nov 09, 2019 9:15 pm

New Historian
Active

Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

Here's my rebuttal of the first 5 points:

Ten Reasons Why Reparations for Blacks is a Bad Idea for Blacks - and Racist, Too!
http://www.adversity.net/reparations/an … ons_ad.htm

This advertisement by David Horowitz enumerates the most obvious flaws in the reparations for slavery movement.  The ad has been censored by numerous newspapers which have refused to publish it out of fear of reprisal from racial extortionists.

FIRST OF ALL, FROM THE NAME OF THE ORGANIZATION AND WEBSITE THAT SPONSOR THIS GARBAGE, IT’S CRYSTAL CLEAR IT’S SOME BARELY DISGUISED WHITE SUPREMACIST FRINGE GROUP. HOWEVER, WE STILL ENDEAVOR TO ENLIGHTEN THE DARK MINDS (PUNS INTENDED), SO I’LL GIVE EACH OF THE TEN “REASONS” THE RESPECT THEY DON’T DESERVE.
SECONDLY, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT AMERICA. THE ISSUE OF SLAVER AND REPARATIONS IS GLOBAL, AND MY MAIN FOCUS IS UNASHAMEDLY ON THE PLACE I KNOW AND LOVE THE MOST: CARIBBEAN. THE ISSUES AFFECTING BLACK AMERICANS ARE A WORLD APART FROM THOSE AFFECTING BLACK WEST INDIANS, BY WHICH I MEAN: WEST INDIANS.
OKAY?

One: There Is No Single Group Clearly Responsible For The Crime Of Slavery
Black Africans and Arabs were responsible for enslaving the ancestors of African-Americans. There were 3,000 black slave-owners in the ante-bellum United States. Are reparations to be paid by their descendants too?

YES THERE IS: IT’S CALLED WHITE PEOPLE. ENGLAND, FRANCE AND SPAIN WERE BUILT UPON SLAVERY, THERE IS A DIRECT HISTORICAL CAUSAL LINK BETWEEN THE INCOME THAT FLOWED TO THE EUROPEAN POWERS FROM THEIR COLONIAL POSSESSIONS. ERIC WILLIAMS’ SEMINAL WORK CAPITALISM AND SLAVERY SHOWED, IN INTRICATE NUMBERED DETAIL, HOW THE SLAVE COLONIES OF JAMAICA, HAITI, MARTINIQUE AND YES GRENADA RESULTED IN A FLOOD OF MONEY AND WEALTH INTO THE METROPOLITAN CITIES OF LONDON, LIVERPOOL, BRISTOL AND COUNTLESS OTHERS, PROVIDING THE STARTING CAPITAL FOR THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION THAT FOLLOWED. AS THE ARTICLE ON HARVARD NOTED, HARVARD UNIVERSITY HAS ITS ROOTS IN SLAVERY IN ANTIGUA: “THE BEQUEST TO HARVARD CAME FROM THE PROCEEDS OF THE PLANTATION IN ANTIGUA AND FROM THE EXPLOITATION AND SALE OF HUMAN BEINGS.” YOU WANT TO SEE THE MODERN-DAY BENEFICIARIES OF SLAVERY? LOOK AROUND YOU.

Two: There Is No One Group That Benefited Exclusively From Its Fruits
The claim for reparations is premised on the false assumption that only whites have benefited from slavery. If slave labor created wealth for Americans, then obviously it has created wealth for black Americans as well, including the descendants of slaves. The GNP of black America is so large that it makes the African-American community the 10th most prosperous "nation" in the world. American blacks on average enjoy per capita incomes in the range of twenty to fifty times that of blacks living in any of the African nations from which they were kidnapped.

THE CASUAL USE OF THAT LAST WORD IS STUNNING: WE KIDNAPPED, RAPED AND KILLED YOU BUT IT’S OKAY BECAUSE WE GAVE YOU MONEY, SO EVERYTHING’S FINE. IT’S NOT. SO THE GNP OF BLACK AMERICA IS HIGHER THAN BLACK AFRICA, BUT WHAT ABOUT COMPARED TO WHITE AMERICA? PLEASE EXCUSE BLACK AMERICANS FOR NOT KISSING WHITE AMERICA’S ASS FOR BEING RICHER THAN BLACK AFRICA, THAT’S NOT REALLY ON THEIR MINDS. WHAT’S ON THEIR MINDS IS LIVING UNDER THE OPPRESSION OF INSTITUTIONALIZED RACISM IN THEIR “ADOPTED” HOME. “WHEREAS WHITE FAMILIES HAVE ACCUMULATED $113,149 OF WEALTH ON AVERAGE, BLACK HOUSEHOLDS HAVE ONLY ACCUMULATED $5,677 IN WEALTH ON AVERAGE.” SO TELL THOSE LUCKY EX-SLAVES HOW LUCK THEY ARE TO THEIR AMERICAN UTOPIA.

Three: Only a Tiny Minority Of White Americans Ever Owned Slaves, And Others Gave Their Lives To Free Them
Only a tiny minority of Americans ever owned slaves. This is true even for those who lived in the ante-bellum South where only one white in five was a slaveholder. Why should their descendants owe a debt? What about the descendants of the 350,000 Union soldiers who died to free the slaves? They gave their lives. What possible moral principle would ask them to pay (through their descendants) again?

A SMALL PROPORTION OF EUROPEANS OWNED SLAVES AS WELL, BUT THE INCREDIBLE WEALTH THEY EARNED FROM SLAVERY LIFTED UP THE ENTIRE COUNTRY. WHERE DO YOU THINK THE MONEY TO DRIVE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION CAME FROM? WHY DO YOU THINK THE EUROPEAN POWERS WAGED RELENTLESS WARS WITH EACH OTHER, FOR CENTURIES, OVER THE TINY ISLANDS OF THE WEST INDIES? THE TINY ISLAND OF RUN IN INDONESIA, HOME OF THE NUTMEG, WAS SWAPPED FOR MANHATTAN IN 1667, THE WEALTH EXPORTED BACK TO THE METROPOLITAN COUNTRIES FOUNDED EMPIRES. BELGIUM WAS BUILT ON THE PROFITS FROM THE KING LEOPOLD’S RUBBER PLANTATIONS IN THE BELGIAN CONGO, CUTTING OFF THE HANDS OF WORKERS (SLAVES) WHO DIDN’T FULFIL THEIR DAILY QUOTAS. EVERY BELGIAN, FRENCHMAN, SPANIARD AND BRIT ALIVE TODAY IS A DIRECT BENEFICIARY OF THE WEALTH THAT ACCRUED TO THEIR COUNTRIES DURING SLAVERY.

Four: America Today Is A Multi-Ethnic Nation and Most Americans Have No Connection (Direct Or Indirect) To Slavery
The two great waves of American immigration occurred after 1880 and then after 1960. What rationale would require Vietnamese boat people, Russian refuseniks, Iranian refugees, and Armenian victims of the Turkish persecution, Jews, Mexicans Greeks, or Polish, Hungarian, Cambodian and Korean victims of Communism, to pay reparations to American blacks?
THIS IS AN AMERICAN ISSUE, NOT MY CONCERN. AMERICA IS ANOTHER (BASKET LOL) CASE ALTOGETHER!

Five: The Historical Precedents Used To Justify The Reparations Claim Do Not Apply, And The Claim Itself Is Based On Race Not Injury
The historical precedents generally invoked to justify the reparations claim are payments to Jewish survivors of the Holocaust, Japanese-Americans and African- American victims of racial experiments in Tuskegee, or racial outrages in Rosewood and Oklahoma City. But in each case, the recipients of reparations were the direct victims of the injustice or their immediate families. This would be the only case of reparations to people who were not immediately affected and whose sole qualification to receive reparations would be racial. As has already been pointed out, during the slavery era, many blacks were free men or slave-owners themselves, yet the reparations claimants make no distinction between the roles blacks actually played in the injustice itself. Randall Robinson's book on reparations, The Debt, which is the manifesto of the reparations movement is pointedly sub-titled "What America Owes To Blacks." If this is not racism, what is?

HOW IS THAT RACISM? HOW IS IT RACIST TO STATE THE OBVIOUS: THAT THE GENOCIDE INFLICTED UPON THE PEOPLES OF AFRICA HAS LEFT DEEP AND LASTING SCARS ON THE MATERIAL AND MENTAL WELLBEING OF THE DESCENDANTS OF THOSE SLAVES, AND THAT SOME FORM OF RESTITUTION IS AN EXPRESSION OF NATURAL JUSTICE? YOU SEEM TO FORGET THAT SLAVERY IN THE USA WAS ABOLISHED IN 1865, THAT’S ONLY 154 YEARS AGO. MY GRANDFATHER WAS BORN IN 1884, YOU THINK HIS PSYCHE WASN’T AFFECTED BY SLAVERY? YOU THINK MY FATHER’S WASN’T? YOU THINK ALL THOSE BOYS ON THE BLOCK, THOSE FATHERLESS HOPELESS YOUNG MEN WHO ONLY KNOW HOW TO FATHER CHILDREN BUT NOT TO BE A FATHER – YOU THINK THEY AREN’T AFFECTED BY SLAVERY AND ITS LONG-TERM AFTER-EFFECTS?

Offline

#2 Nov 11, 2019 10:49 am

Slice
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

So my question with reparations have always been, how will I benefit from it?  Is it fair to ask Expat and RD to pay for something they are their parents did not do and in some ways probably was against slavery?  Kinda selfish, but if they did not export my Great great mother I and my family would  not of been here.  Never ever saying Slavery was right, but it happened and because it happened, lets make the best of it.  Lord man you like to write.

Offline

#3 Nov 11, 2019 11:55 am

Dancer
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

The Thorny History of Reparations in the U.S.
In the 20th Century the Country issued reparations for .....
Japanese American interment
Native land seizures
Massacres and police brutality
Tuskegee Experiments
Native Hawaiian .... for the overthrow of a kingdom
........ We want reparations..... sometime.

Offline

#4 Nov 11, 2019 3:25 pm

New Historian
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

Slice wrote:

So my question with reparations have always been, how will I benefit from it?  Is it fair to ask Expat and RD to pay for something they are their parents did not do and in some ways probably was against slavery?  Kinda selfish, but if they did not export my Great great mother I and my family would  not of been here.  Never ever saying Slavery was right, but it happened and because it happened, lets make the best of it.  Lord man you like to write.

Yes I like to write - when I get riled up enough lol!

You know what I mean by reparations? Not a check from every white to every black, not even a check for every black, first and foremost i want the former slave owning nations to ACKNOWLEDGE the heinous morally bankrupt actions of their ancestors - AND THE HARM THAT THOSE ACTIONS STILL BRING UPON THE DESCENDANTS OF SLAVERY. fROM THEN WE CAN BEGIN THE CONVERSATION ABOUT RETRIBUTION.

Look at Haiti, that benighted country was forced to pay "retributions" to France, for having the audacity to free itself from slavery - FOR CENTURIES. These payments crippled Haiti and went on up to around the mid-1940's I believe. How do you expect Haitit o educate its people when half of everything it earns has to be paid to France? Today, France has some of the best water compaines in the world, if "money was not a problem", those French companies could make sure that every Haitian had access to clean water within a decade. All it takes is MONEY. And all that takes is POLITICAL WILL. Right now there is none of each coming from France.

Development aid is given a bad name nowadays, which suits the rich nations just fine. It doesn't work? Great, we'll stop giving it then! Not so fast, Kymo Sabe, you don't get off quite so easily. So by REPARATIONS I mean RESTITUTION: fix the water, educate the children, empower the women - GIVE.

But of course the "rich" nations will all tell you they're not rich at all, they can't afford it, get over slavery, move on.

Offline

#5 Nov 11, 2019 3:28 pm

Slice
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

It is critical for one to know the author of the piece.  Once you know it is also critical to understand his point of view.
, and way he coming from.

Offline

#6 Nov 11, 2019 3:44 pm

New Historian
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

Slice wrote:

It is critical for one to know the author of the piece.  Once you know it is also critical to understand his point of view.
, and way he coming from.

Yes, and when the website says it's for "Victims of Reverse Racism", it kinda tells you everything about where they're coming from.

Offline

#7 Nov 11, 2019 8:29 pm

Expat
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

History as a dip into my old school report showed is not my best subject, but while I will acknowledge the likes of the Tates and obviously businesses that surrounded or spun off them would have benefited of the sugar cane industry, which as we know was supported by slavery, I find it a stretch to state that the industrial revolution was predicated on slavery.

The invention of the spinning Jenny, and the evolution of the steam engine which enabled deep coal and tin mining in the UK, the increased speed of good and people transportation across the country, and the mechanisation of cotton factories which I may be wrong was supplied by Indian Cotton hardly seems to be a bank rolling by funds from Sugar.

I am not going to say the economy of the country did not benefit.... well at least the few business magnets of the time, but we already know the trickle down theory is not a real happening, and the majority of citizens in the UK were piss poor, and struggling to survive during this apparent glut of wealth from the Windies. I would go as far as to say poverty was only largely diminished after WW2.

Offline

#8 Nov 11, 2019 9:13 pm

New Historian
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

Expat wrote:

History as a dip into my old school report showed is not my best subject, but while I will acknowledge the likes of the Tates and obviously businesses that surrounded or spun off them would have benefited of the sugar cane industry, which as we know was supported by slavery, I find it a stretch to state that the industrial revolution was predicated on slavery.

The invention of the spinning Jenny, and the evolution of the steam engine which enabled deep coal and tin mining in the UK, the increased speed of good and people transportation across the country, and the mechanisation of cotton factories which I may be wrong was supplied by Indian Cotton hardly seems to be a bank rolling by funds from Sugar.

I am not going to say the economy of the country did not benefit.... well at least the few business magnets of the time, but we already know the trickle down theory is not a real happening, and the majority of citizens in the UK were piss poor, and struggling to survive during this apparent glut of wealth from the Windies. I would go as far as to say poverty was only largely diminished after WW2.

You would be surprised, as I was, exactly how much slavery and sugar contributed to the rise of the British economy. They're a bit dated now, but Eric Williams' brilliant book Capitalism and Slavery, an outgrowth from his PhD thesis, goes into painstaking detail of the contribution, and Walter Rodney did the same with his How Europe Underdeveloped Africa.

A debt unpaid.

Last edited by New Historian (Nov 11, 2019 9:36 pm)

Offline

#9 Nov 11, 2019 10:37 pm

New Historian
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH_Yhz1jwtc

In this engaging lecture with author James Heartfield filmed by WORLDbytes volunteers, we learn why Eric Williams & C.L.R. James critical understanding of the history of slavery’s abolition was right, and in its day considered shocking. British parliamentarians, anti-slavery campaigners and do-gooders from Buxton to Wilberforce were certainly not the key drivers of slavery’s demise. As Williams argued, abolition made economic sense. C.L.R James was no fan of reparations either, and we learn that three historic attempts at compensation were a complete disaster and they always will be Heartfield argues. Like ‘apologies’, reparations always maintain power relations, the authority and moral superiority of the giver over the recipient. The contemporary ‘feeling guilty about slavery’ fad Heartfield explains is degrading too and nothing more than self-indulgent narcissism, it doesn’t fix anything and fails to deal with the present entirely.

EXCELLENT DEBATE

Offline

#10 Nov 12, 2019 8:41 am

Dancer
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

Took me back to High School with your ' lecture ' New Historian.  Doing my GCE 's . You got 5 , you go to 6th form .  Some girls and guys got 8, 9 . Jeez !
One of mine was history.  AND  William Wilberforce  1759 - 1833  is a name that  came through . ... I had to renew a little.  Lo.
WILBERFORCE :  British politician and philanthropist  was prominent in the struggle to abolish the slave trade and then to abolish  slavery itself in British overseas possessions .
Other names that resonated , John Newton , The Proclamation Society . ( I guess Williams and C.L.R. saw history a little differently from the history books.) .LO.

Good post New historian. I see you don't go to parties anymore   either.  LMAO. 
"" like a friend of mine said to me on the island ,  a lot of the guys just  doing lectures  dese days. lol.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB