You are not logged in.

Announcement

Welcome to the one and only Spiceislander Talkshop.

#11 Nov 12, 2019 6:55 pm

Slice
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

New Historian wrote:
Slice wrote:

So my question with reparations have always been, how will I benefit from it?  Is it fair to ask Expat and RD to pay for something they are their parents did not do and in some ways probably was against slavery?  Kinda selfish, but if they did not export my Great great mother I and my family would  not of been here.  Never ever saying Slavery was right, but it happened and because it happened, lets make the best of it.  Lord man you like to write.

Yes I like to write - when I get riled up enough lol!

You know what I mean by reparations? Not a check from every white to every black, not even a check for every black, first and foremost i want the former slave owning nations to ACKNOWLEDGE the heinous morally bankrupt actions of their ancestors - AND THE HARM THAT THOSE ACTIONS STILL BRING UPON THE DESCENDANTS OF SLAVERY. fROM THEN WE CAN BEGIN THE CONVERSATION ABOUT RETRIBUTION.

Look at Haiti, that benighted country was forced to pay "retributions" to France, for having the audacity to free itself from slavery - FOR CENTURIES. These payments crippled Haiti and went on up to around the mid-1940's I believe. How do you expect Haitit o educate its people when half of everything it earns has to be paid to France? Today, France has some of the best water compaines in the world, if "money was not a problem", those French companies could make sure that every Haitian had access to clean water within a decade. All it takes is MONEY. And all that takes is POLITICAL WILL. Right now there is none of each coming from France.

Development aid is given a bad name nowadays, which suits the rich nations just fine. It doesn't work? Great, we'll stop giving it then! Not so fast, Kymo Sabe, you don't get off quite so easily. So by REPARATIONS I mean RESTITUTION: fix the water, educate the children, empower the women - GIVE.

But of course the "rich" nations will all tell you they're not rich at all, they can't afford it, get over slavery, move on.

  Haiti is another topic completely.  Maybe one day, we will deal with it. NH ah find meself defending you out of Talkshop. I had to tell the Talkshopper, that is how Grenadian argue.  In a way ah doh like it, but I quickly realize,  Grenadian always make it personal. Sheet I am not going to be left out, me very best friend in Grenada during an argument called me ah dummy.  When other folks walk away, I think they knew what was coming, I hit him so damn hard, the next day he called and said man ah sorry for the name I called you yesterday.  Back to the subject at hand,  This billionaire I saw last night was saying why on earth Warren and other folks are so damn hard on rich folks?  Ah just doh know,  all I can say  is it is ah great thing to be rich, that way I can tackle ah bunch ah problem in Grenada. I am in favor of reparations if it, is paying off all poor black folks Students loan.  Not ah Red penny for anything else.  It is just not fair to ask children to pay off ah debt they did not make.

Last edited by Slice (Nov 12, 2019 6:58 pm)

Offline

#12 Nov 12, 2019 10:01 pm

Expat
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

New Historian wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH_Yhz1jwtc

In this engaging lecture with author James Heartfield filmed by WORLDbytes volunteers, we learn why Eric Williams & C.L.R. James critical understanding of the history of slavery’s abolition was right, and in its day considered shocking. British parliamentarians, anti-slavery campaigners and do-gooders from Buxton to Wilberforce were certainly not the key drivers of slavery’s demise. As Williams argued, abolition made economic sense. C.L.R James was no fan of reparations either, and we learn that three historic attempts at compensation were a complete disaster and they always will be Heartfield argues. Like ‘apologies’, reparations always maintain power relations, the authority and moral superiority of the giver over the recipient. The contemporary ‘feeling guilty about slavery’ fad Heartfield explains is degrading too and nothing more than self-indulgent narcissism, it doesn’t fix anything and fails to deal with the present entirely.

EXCELLENT DEBATE

Too late tonight to watch video's, but a simple addendum, I am pretty sure via various sources Britain and Europe fund various activities in the Caribbean, similar to the Americans sending hospital ships to the region in effect, though perhaps not so obvious or public.

There was I remember some fear that Britain doing the Brexit would mean monies chanelled from Europe would no longer reach ex British territories.

So there are in a less public way a form of ongoing reparations going on....... no?

Offline

#13 Nov 12, 2019 10:41 pm

New Historian
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

Yes the UK gives aid, nowhere the 1% of GDP that many developed countries pledged to do in the heady days of the 1970s, but aid nevertheless. 2016 UK Aid to the Caribbean is shown below; apart from Montserrat which they can't escape from because it's theirs, Aid to the rest of the Caribbean can be summarised in one word: derisory. So please, don't insult the concept of reparations by applying it to this pittance.

UK-aid.jpg

Last edited by New Historian (Nov 12, 2019 10:41 pm)

Offline

#14 Nov 13, 2019 9:07 am

New Historian
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ … 8nlFrdQ5Rc

Slave ownership, it appears, was far more common than has previously been presumed. Many of these middle-class slave owners had just a few slaves, possessed no land in the Caribbean and rented their slaves out to landowners, in work gangs.These bit-players were home county vicars, iron manufacturers from the Midlands and lots and lots of widows. About 40% of the slave owners living in the colonies were women. Then, as now, women tended to outlive their husbands and simply inherited human property through their partner’s wills.

The geographic spread of the slave owners who were resident in Britain in 1834 was almost as unexpected as the gender breakdown. Slavery was once thought of as an activity largely limited to the ports from which the ships of the triangular trade set sail; Bristol, London, Liverpool and Glasgow. Yet there were slave owners across the country, from Cornwall to the Orkneys. In proportion to population, the highest rates of slave ownership are found in Scotland.

Offline

#15 Nov 13, 2019 2:35 pm

New Historian
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

New Historian wrote:

Yes the UK gives aid, nowhere the 1% of GDP that many developed countries pledged to do in the heady days of the 1970s, but aid nevertheless. 2016 UK Aid to the Caribbean is shown below; apart from Montserrat which they can't escape from because it's theirs, Aid to the rest of the Caribbean can be summarised in one word: derisory. So please, don't insult the concept of reparations by applying it to this pittance.

https://i.postimg.cc/jwT5K6PJ/UK-aid.jpg


And here's the updated UK Bilateral Aid to the Caribbean in 2018. Yes, it went down. This is not any form of "making amends", this is lip service. Were it not for Montserrat, which belongs to them, UK's total aid to the Caribbean for 2018 comes out to 71 pence per man, woman and child. Thanks guys, that'll go far.

UK-ODA-2018.jpg

Offline

#16 Nov 13, 2019 3:24 pm

Expat
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

Well it was 1.68 pp for Grenada, but I didn't see any of that, so who got my share..... probably that interloper Slice coming with his begging bowl.

But wait nah what you want $2000 per year per person for life?

The latest hardships were not of the UK's making were they.

Jolly old American business caused the World financial collapse that we are lingering over. If we have too much youth with no jobs to go to who do you blame the British tax payer, or the horny adults that don't use condoms? There are things Britain of old is responsible for, but Carnival kids is not one of them.

There is this theory that slavery caused unstable relationships and caused single parent families. That may have been true many decades ago, but how many generations does it take to figure out it ain't just for pleasure, that when you undo the zipper there are consequences.

If you listen to the local music maybe 90% or perhaps more in one way or another promotes sex, not love, but sex, and not even in a discrete way. With this music pumping about bumpers and going down there etc it creates or encourages a mentality, just as porn does.

Last edited by Expat (Nov 13, 2019 3:33 pm)

Offline

#17 Nov 13, 2019 4:01 pm

New Historian
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

"But wait nah what you want $2000 per year per person for life?"

Let us not get ridiculous now. What I "want" is for the former slave owning nations to stop apologising, and DO SOMETHING to correct the wrongs they keep beating their chests about. When I see Blair in Africa with his dewy-eyes saying how sorry he is, I want to puke. (Well Blair makes me want to puke at the best of times anyway lol!) I'm not talking about any individual reparations, I'm talking about a material increase in the volume of overseas Aid given from the UK. This should be directly related to "righting the wrongs", so the focus should be on: education, social programmes, infrastructure, and even more education-education-education.

Offline

#18 Nov 13, 2019 7:19 pm

Expat
Active

Re: Rebuttal to Horowitz' racist arguments reparations - part 1

Even your proposal has tangents..

Quite a few of the nations especially in Affrica if they were ruled honestly, and weren't trying to carry out genocides from time to time...(yes I know that is because of European created borders). But some of those nations have more wealth under their soil than the First World put together if they just extract it.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB