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#11 Sep 12, 2020 5:00 pm

Real Distwalker
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Re: Weather on the way for NH

I have never said that mankind has no effect.  I have said that the climate is always changing and it is difficult, if not impossible, to know the effect of all of the variables.  Man is certainly having some effect, but how much?  Nobody knows.

Look, the notion that the climate was optimized for human life in, say, 1970 and that any deviation from the 1970 optimum is all negative is absurd.  But that is the way people behave.  It is like 1970 was climate perfection and there is only negative results from moving away from that.

C'mon.  There are times when the climate was warmer and there were times when it was colder.   Humans lived on the British Isles and then were driven from them for thousands of years during the last glacial maximum.  When the climate warmed, humans reoccupied the islands and have been there since.  Clearly warming was good for humans then.

The Holocene Climate Optimum was a warm period from about 9,000 years ago to 5,000 years ago.  It was warmer than now.  The Sahara was green and lush.  There were crocodiles and hippopotamuses in Britain.  It was a time of huge human population growth.

The Medieval Warm Period was around the years 1000 to 1200 AD.  It was as warm as the 20th century.  It was also a time of human population growth.  It was the period after it as the climate cooled that brought famine and plague to Europe.

It is impossible for me to believe that the effects of climate change are all negative and that 1970 was some kind of optimum.  To believe that requires a willing suspension of disbelief.  It is just absurd.

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#12 Sep 12, 2020 6:45 pm

Slice
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Re: Weather on the way for NH

Expat wrote:

Yes, I have recently become aware of how politcal, and also inept many media sources are. Even the BBC has fallen into the inept, or failed to do their own research, or are following the party line with Covid. Which is why I like the Highwire, as from my perpective at least their findings are far more tied to science, as actually been proved by their last transmission which did a reprise of events.

However I find the concept that for a brief period England might have a slightly longer growing season for SOME crops, while losing the ability to grow others, while the rest of mainland Europe pivots drastically between scortching heat and arctic freezing a very little plus. Combined with swathes of the perma frost melting and releasing tons of methane into the atmosphere, the West coast of America turning into a charred trea stump, Similar scenario for great tranches of Russia. The stalling of the Atlantic currents, The ice of the North pole ceasing to freeze increasing temperatures, and the ice shelf in Antartica breaking up and contributing to sea elevations just not really a compensation for 3 more weeks of barley production.

P.S. I am pretty sure it was not that long ago that you were poo poing that mankind was having ANY affect on climate change. It was all cyclical, and that we made no difference to it at all.

I kinda know RD makes his own mind up, but never understatement what effects grown children have on their parents.  In a way, they are what we are about.

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#13 Sep 13, 2020 12:27 am

Expat
Active

Re: Weather on the way for NH

Real Distwalker wrote:

I have never said that mankind has no effect.  I have said that the climate is always changing and it is difficult, if not impossible, to know the effect of all of the variables.  Man is certainly having some effect, but how much?  Nobody knows.

Look, the notion that the climate was optimized for human life in, say, 1970 and that any deviation from the 1970 optimum is all negative is absurd.  But that is the way people behave.  It is like 1970 was climate perfection and there is only negative results from moving away from that.

C'mon.  There are times when the climate was warmer and there were times when it was colder.   Humans lived on the British Isles and then were driven from them for thousands of years during the last glacial maximum.  When the climate warmed, humans reoccupied the islands and have been there since.  Clearly warming was good for humans then.

The Holocene Climate Optimum was a warm period from about 9,000 years ago to 5,000 years ago.  It was warmer than now.  The Sahara was green and lush.  There were crocodiles and hippopotamuses in Britain.  It was a time of huge human population growth.

The Medieval Warm Period was around the years 1000 to 1200 AD.  It was as warm as the 20th century.  It was also a time of human population growth.  It was the period after it as the climate cooled that brought famine and plague to Europe.

It is impossible for me to believe that the effects of climate change are all negative and that 1970 was some kind of optimum.  To believe that requires a willing suspension of disbelief.  It is just absurd.

I like to know what occured in that past. Sometimes we can learn from it.
However despite the fact I shall not be around to see much of the damage we are doing to ourselves, currently Wildlife is down about 2/3, admittedly not jus because of Global Warming, but 5,000 folks have to get out of town quick fast because of fires, which we are seeing all over the World, even in that lush verdant land the call the UK. Whether in 15,000 years we cycle back because population falls and industrial processes improved is way beyond my concern. What does concern me is the same indifference to poor practices to be offset by carbon exchange, is just akin to the stupidity of wrecking the environment in a totally unsuitable way with a 15 story hotel in the furthest location from the airport you can manage.

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#14 Sep 13, 2020 7:08 am

Real Distwalker
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Re: Weather on the way for NH

That's part of the problem.  You take it for granted that, for example, fires are caused by the portion of the climate being affected by mankind.  Nobody knows that.

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#15 Sep 14, 2020 8:01 am

Expat
Active

Re: Weather on the way for NH

Well fires are a natural phenominon, and excessive heat are a natural phenominon, so we wont worry about that, and lightening strikes are a natura PHENOMINON, AND SEA RISE AND FALL IS A NATURAL PHENOMINON.

sO pHUCK IT, LETS NOT ACCEPT ANY LIKLEYHOOD THAT ANY OF IT IS EVEN PARTLY DUE TO BURNING MILLIONS OF TONS OF COAL, PUMPING ALL KINDS OF POLLUTANTS INTO THE AIR THROUGH FACTORY CHIMNEYS, AND SURELY THE TRILLIONS OF CARS TRUCKS BUSES AND TAXI'S (caps)planes and trains all pumping shit into the air, never mins the power generating stations creating "clean energy" 24/7 are having no affect whatsoever. after all we are but bees only tiny little creatures on this vast planet, what possible affect could we be having.

No, you're right lets just carry on the same stupid way we have done since the start of the industrial age. When the spinning Jenny cam about you didn't need a mask to breath in the big cities. Maybe a posey under your nose to cover up the smell of the horse shite as there were no cars. Talk about Nero fiddling while Rome burns.

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#16 Sep 14, 2020 9:09 am

Real Distwalker
Active

Re: Weather on the way for NH

Did I not say that climate change is caused by, in part, human activities?  Yes I did.  I said it many times. 

What do you want me to do about climate change?  Most of the power I consume in Iowa comes from wind. Iowa gets more of its power from wind than any state and will be the first state to be 100 percent green energy.

I have the most efficient ground source, geothermal heating and cooling system available.  I have an extremely energy efficient house.   I dare say I am more energy efficient than you.  The fuel I use in my cars has a large component of corn ethanol.  Sometimes it is 85% ethanol.  We use bio-diesel on the farm.

Beyond that, much of the land I own is in wetland set-aside.  It is untouched natural land and full of turkeys, deer, frogs, snakes and all manner of wild birds.

Somehow to you this adds up to me being anti-environment. Why?  Because...

1) I recognize that some portion of climate change is natural and,

2) It will be a mixed bag for humanity.  Some effects will be positive.   Not most but some.

I don't get that.

Last edited by Real Distwalker (Sep 14, 2020 9:10 am)

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#17 Sep 14, 2020 3:35 pm

Expat
Active

Re: Weather on the way for NH

Me Me me.... Why is everything so personal to you.

For Christe sake despite the suddenly haven seen the light, as I sure as hell remember you, despite this aparent never said that point of view, arguing strongly that Global warming (climate change as we know it now) had little or almost nothing to do with humans. That one volcano could pitch out as much in a day as we created in a decade, so why give a crap was the read between the lines of what you wrote in the past.

That WAS where you stood or from you writing seemed to stand. Now you seem to have accepted we MIGHT be making a difference. Wow.

But what the flying phuck has that got to do with what specifically you are doing? It is the debate of a point of view, not whether you have ducks floating on a pond next to a windmill with a haywaggon passing over a stream.

We know already about your geothermal heating, and God knows how many other wonderful benefits from supadupa insulation, and that you live on the only high spot for States around, etc etc. No one, certainly not me, and it is primarily me this debate has been with over the years has suggested you have a covert operation going on, using sweated child labour running a blast furnace employing trees cut down from miles around to create plastic badges with Iowa stamped on it.

Get it? the DEBATE is not about you.

As for your 2 points

1) yes

2) As I said before the positive benefits for a few will hardly hold a candle to the downsides for most.

Last edited by Expat (Sep 14, 2020 3:37 pm)

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#18 Sep 14, 2020 4:09 pm

Real Distwalker
Active

Re: Weather on the way for NH

The point is that I am doing what I can to minimize my carbon footprint.  I am doing a hell of a lot more than the celebrities who lecture us about it constantly.

What I said was that all of the climate change we have experienced over the last 40 years is within the natural variability of the last several hundred thousand years.  It is perfectly explainable as natural change within the range of past climate change.  I recognize, however, that some of it must be the result of human activities.  That said, human activity isn't necessary to explain it.

What year was the climate optimal?  About 1975 or 1980?  Does that mean all of the climate change up to that point was beneficial for mankind?  Obviously it must have been to be optimal at that point if any deviation from that point is negative.

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#19 Sep 14, 2020 10:04 pm

Expat
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Re: Weather on the way for NH

You are my hero, I live in shame at your world saving activities while I jog about spewing noxious gases and causing our islands generators to go into overdrive guzzling diesel as fast as they can.

As I just said a debate on whether the greatest South Atlantic melt in eons is nothing to do with what we are individually are doing. Yes it does actually matter... or at least I think it does, again in previous convo's your opinion seemed to be individually we made no difference. Mine is, accumulated we do.

But again this is a discussion/ debate I needn't know about your geothermals, or you know about my... just doing the same as everyone else given the environment and location.

Just like your rolling covid stats with slice, one incident, or one frozen river does not define an era, the World is a vast(to us) ecosystem, and while America is having a heatwave Europe can be having a cold spell, and viceversa, it is the cumulative information.

We must surely think the deforestation of large swathes of rainforest for cattle feed, and palm oil production is going to accelerate heating, not only with removing the foliage which increases temperature, but with the methane the cattle emanate.

The polar cap getting ready to be open water during the Summer, the glaciers melting in Antarctica, the Siberian permafrost melting, all these things are happening so we are told at higher rates than known before, and in some cases never happened in conjunction with each other like south and North poles being affected simultaneously when previously one would expand while the other retreated.

More than at other times we are more in agreement, but I will stick with my I think mankind is accelerating the process, regardless of whether there are cycles, and I guess you will continue with there are cycles, and probably man isn't doing too much wrong.

The interesting thing is from Ice Cores they determined when man introduced agriculture 10,000 years ago. I guess if there is any ice left in a few millenia they may be able to see when runaway heating caused mankind and half the natural world to go extinct.

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#20 Sep 14, 2020 10:13 pm

Real Distwalker
Active

Re: Weather on the way for NH

I recall a discussion in which I made the case that nothing we do individually will have the slightest effect on the global climate.  I think the truth of that is manifest and I stand by it.

Have you ever heard the "Serenity Prayer"?

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.

Read it.  Learn it.  Live it.

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