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#1 Jul 03, 2017 9:57 pm

New Historian
Member

When we were Kings: Whispering Death

Aah I so miss those old glory days of cricket - they did us proud!

Nice series of interviews with "Firey" Geoff Boycott about the world's best fast bowlers - meaning West Indians of course!

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#2 Jul 04, 2017 3:36 am

Calypso
Member

Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

New Historian wrote:

Aah I so miss those old glory days of cricket - they did us proud!

Nice series of interviews with "Firey" Geoff Boycott about the world's best fast bowlers - meaning West Indians of course!



Yes, Holding was one of our best men in the sport of cricket. Joel Garner, aka Big Bird, Viv Richards, Colin Croft, Collis KIng-- you named them. I didn't like how the Caribbean banished those "rebel" cricketers from playing in the 80s. You had so much talent in the group that went to South Africa. It was their choice to do so. They ended up playing the harshest price of all. Viv is beautiful!

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#3 Jul 04, 2017 8:34 am

gripe
Member

Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

Of the West Indian cricketers you mentioned, Calypso, only Colin Croft and Collis King were among the West Indian "rebels" that toured South Africa. Here are the others that played:

"1982-3 squad: Lawrence Rowe (captain), Richard Austin, Herbert Chang, Sylvester Clarke, Colin Croft, Alvin Greenidge, Bernard Julien, Alvin Kallicharran, Collis King, Everton Mattis, Ezra Moseley, David Murray, Derick Parry, Franklyn Stephenson, Emmerson Trotman, Ray Wynter, Albert Padmore (player/manager).[33]

1983-4 squad: Lawrence Rowe (captain), Hartley Alleyne, Faoud Bacchus, Sylvester Clarke, Colin Croft, Alvin Greenidge, Bernard Julien, Alvin Kallicharran, Collis King, Monte Lynch, Everton Mattis, Ezra Moseley, David Murray, Derick Parry, Franklyn Stephenson, Emmerson Trotman, Albert Padmore (player/manager).[34]"

The above information is found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_rebel_tours

Last edited by gripe (Jul 04, 2017 8:35 am)

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#4 Jul 04, 2017 9:32 am

New Historian
Member

Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

They only got the punishment they fully deserved! The Windies were our pride and joy, and they dragged that pride through the apartheid mud, to get their hands on the Krugerrands. They offered Viv and Ian Botham a million each, in those days a staggering amount of money for a cricketer to make, and they both told the South Africans to take a hike.

"Yagga" Rowe was an outcast in Jamaica after that, we were 100% firm when it came to apartheid, more than one England cricket tour was in jeopardy because of the presence of players in their ranks who'd been to SA. I was in a bar in Kingston not long after Rowe came back, and some patrons were giving him a piece of their minds - he fled to the "safety" of Miami lol!

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#5 Jul 04, 2017 10:24 am

Calypso
Member

Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

gripe wrote:

Of the West Indian cricketers you mentioned, Calypso, only Colin Croft and Collis King were among the West Indian "rebels" that toured South Africa. Here are the others that played:

"1982-3 squad: Lawrence Rowe (captain), Richard Austin, Herbert Chang, Sylvester Clarke, Colin Croft, Alvin Greenidge, Bernard Julien, Alvin Kallicharran, Collis King, Everton Mattis, Ezra Moseley, David Murray, Derick Parry, Franklyn Stephenson, Emmerson Trotman, Ray Wynter, Albert Padmore (player/manager).[33]

1983-4 squad: Lawrence Rowe (captain), Hartley Alleyne, Faoud Bacchus, Sylvester Clarke, Colin Croft, Alvin Greenidge, Bernard Julien, Alvin Kallicharran, Collis King, Monte Lynch, Everton Mattis, Ezra Moseley, David Murray, Derick Parry, Franklyn Stephenson, Emmerson Trotman, Albert Padmore (player/manager).[34]"

The above information is found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_rebel_tours

I am aware of the names of the so-called "rebel" 18 who went to South Africa whose  names were written out of West Indian cricket history. This act is so unfair! Why be so damned tough-headed and not  acknowledge them?

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#6 Jul 04, 2017 10:59 am

gripe
Member

Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

Although the players were, in the opinion of many including me, treated unfairly when they were banned, I would not say that their "names were written out of West Indian cricket history." Who can really forget the contributions of those players and not easily find information on their careers?

The actual number of West Indian "rebels" is 20, not 18. Both tours of West Indian "rebels" numbered 17. However, on the second tour, 3 players did not make it -- Richard Austin, Herbert Chang and Ray Wynter. Those players were replaced by another 3: Hartley Alleyne, Faoud Bacchus and Monte Lynch.

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#7 Jul 04, 2017 11:07 am

Calypso
Member

Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/conte … 19782.html

Thanks for the information. Sure they could never be written out of West Indian cricket history but their names will be forever attached to a sigma. They made a choice of going to South Africa to play for money to feed their families. The English went in '83 and the Sri-Lankans followed shortly afterwards. They came down harsher on them for they were men of African descent who did not stood in solidarity with the politics of the time.

Last edited by Calypso (Jul 04, 2017 11:22 am)

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#8 Jul 04, 2017 11:49 am

gripe
Member

Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

The "stigma" of the West Indian cricketing "rebels'" participation in South Africa during Apartheid is definitely long-lasting.   

The following excerpts give some sense of the responses that all of the "rebels" -- White and Black -- received from both their cricketing boards and the citizens of their countries:   


1. "At various points throughout the seventies, English county cricketer, businessman and sports promoter Derrick Robins organised private tours of South Africa. There were no sanctions against individual cricketers who toured the country at that point and, as such, despite condemnation by politicians, activists and many cricket fans, several big names in the sport decided to join him on these overseas jaunts, with the likes of Brian Close, Bob Willis and Tony Greig involved. Robins largely shrugged off the criticism his tours attracted, and even went as far as to suggest that by fielding multi-racial teams – West Indian cricketer John Shepherd was included on two of his tours – he was helping to break down apartheid. Naturally, not everyone bought this explanation, and perhaps owing in part to the reaction in Britain he made South Africa his part-time home from 1975."

2. "Unfortunately for the rebels, the subsequent outcry was rather louder than they had expected. They were vilified back home by press and politicians, while condemnation of the tour made it into the Houses of Parliament where they were described as 'The Dirty Dozen' by Labour MP Gerald Kaufman. English cricket was dragged through the mud both domestically and internationally, both by the association with apartheid and the unseemliness of cricketers playing purely for money. For many, the rebels had gone against everything English cricket stood for, and all for a reported payday of around £40,000 to £60,000 each.

In South Africa, the team were lionised, with many newspapers heralding the homecoming of international cricket and predicting a return to the sporting fold. It was a domestic propaganda coup for the apartheid regime, which further damaged the touring team's reputation back home and abroad. The tour was a fiasco, with an underprepared, ageing and increasingly demoralised English team losing all their matches against South Africa. When they returned to England, they were met with a wall of anger. The rebels, who totalled 15 cricketers in the end including injury cover and late additions, were given three-year bans from international cricket, which in the cases of Geoffrey Boycott, Mike Hendrick, Geoff Humpage and Bob Woolmer effectively ended their international careers.

3. "The Sri Lankan and West Indian rebel tours of the mid eighties were even more acrimonious, with many of the rebels' compatriots denouncing them as traitors and apartheid collaborators. All of those who participated received lifetime bans from their respective cricket boards, and often found themselves frozen out from social, civil and professional life. The issue of money was again controversial, making it easy for the press at home to characterise them as mercenaries who had sold out their countries. In the case of the West Indian tours, opinion was perhaps more divided, with some arguing that their good showings in South Africa were actually a public blow to racism and apartheid rhetoric."

Read more at:  https://sports.vice.com/en_au/article/3 … uth-africa

You are correct that "They came con harsher on them for they were men of African descent who did not stood in solidarity with the politics of the time." It is a very, very, strange irony that our West Indian cricketers who did the same thing as White cricketers by going to South Africa during Apartheid, were punished much more severely than English cricketers: lifetime bans for West Indian cricketers compared to the 3-year bans for the English cricketers.

Last edited by gripe (Jul 04, 2017 11:51 am)

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#9 Jul 04, 2017 12:15 pm

Calypso
Member

Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

gripe wrote:

The "stigma" of the West Indian cricketing "rebels'" participation in South Africa during Apartheid is definitely long-lasting.   

The following excerpts give some sense of the responses that all of the "rebels" -- White and Black -- received from both their cricketing boards and the citizens of their countries:   


1. "At various points throughout the seventies, English county cricketer, businessman and sports promoter Derrick Robins organised private tours of South Africa. There were no sanctions against individual cricketers who toured the country at that point and, as such, despite condemnation by politicians, activists and many cricket fans, several big names in the sport decided to join him on these overseas jaunts, with the likes of Brian Close, Bob Willis and Tony Greig involved. Robins largely shrugged off the criticism his tours attracted, and even went as far as to suggest that by fielding multi-racial teams – West Indian cricketer John Shepherd was included on two of his tours – he was helping to break down apartheid. Naturally, not everyone bought this explanation, and perhaps owing in part to the reaction in Britain he made South Africa his part-time home from 1975."

2. "Unfortunately for the rebels, the subsequent outcry was rather louder than they had expected. They were vilified back home by press and politicians, while condemnation of the tour made it into the Houses of Parliament where they were described as 'The Dirty Dozen' by Labour MP Gerald Kaufman. English cricket was dragged through the mud both domestically and internationally, both by the association with apartheid and the unseemliness of cricketers playing purely for money. For many, the rebels had gone against everything English cricket stood for, and all for a reported payday of around £40,000 to £60,000 each.

In South Africa, the team were lionised, with many newspapers heralding the homecoming of international cricket and predicting a return to the sporting fold. It was a domestic propaganda coup for the apartheid regime, which further damaged the touring team's reputation back home and abroad. The tour was a fiasco, with an underprepared, ageing and increasingly demoralised English team losing all their matches against South Africa. When they returned to England, they were met with a wall of anger. The rebels, who totalled 15 cricketers in the end including injury cover and late additions, were given three-year bans from international cricket, which in the cases of Geoffrey Boycott, Mike Hendrick, Geoff Humpage and Bob Woolmer effectively ended their international careers.

3. "The Sri Lankan and West Indian rebel tours of the mid eighties were even more acrimonious, with many of the rebels' compatriots denouncing them as traitors and apartheid collaborators. All of those who participated received lifetime bans from their respective cricket boards, and often found themselves frozen out from social, civil and professional life. The issue of money was again controversial, making it easy for the press at home to characterise them as mercenaries who had sold out their countries. In the case of the West Indian tours, opinion was perhaps more divided, with some arguing that their good showings in South Africa were actually a public blow to racism and apartheid rhetoric."

Read more at:  https://sports.vice.com/en_au/article/3 … uth-africa

You are correct that "They came con harsher on them for they were men of African descent who did not stood in solidarity with the politics of the time." It is a very, very, strange irony that our West Indian cricketers who did the same thing as White cricketers by going to South Africa during Apartheid, were punished much more severely than English cricketers: lifetime bans for West Indian cricketers compared to the 3-year bans for the English cricketers.


Your logic and intelligence come across like " commie" one of my favorite monikers who quit the Talkshop. Miss him dearly. I feel that as men they made a choice. Viv Pondered whether he should go or not at that time. He decided not to go because had he gone, many others would have followed. Holding stood fast in his stance against Apartheid from the very beginning. There was a theory that the presence of the cricketers in South Africa was the beginning of the end of the segregation in the country It was dispelled later. I have seen interviews with some of the men who went. Many stood steadfast to their beliefs and I respect them for that.

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#10 Jul 04, 2017 1:21 pm

gripe
Member

Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

The reality, Calypso, is that some things, some issues, are much, much, bigger that we are, women and men that are mere mortals. In our individual and often collective struggles to deal with what life presents us, it is not uncommon for our paths -- the paths of even dear friends, colleagues, and even teammates in the case of our beloved West Indian cricketers -- to differ. You highlighted both Viv's and Holding's decisions not to participate and be with and among the "rebels". Yet, there were 20 of our solid cricketers who made the move and paid dearly for so doing. These many years later, those "rebels" could still find some consolation that South Africa finally come around to wider acceptance in the world community way beyond sports, and that they, the "rebels", arguably helped the process.

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