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#21 Jul 05, 2017 5:03 pm

Slice
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Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

One more.  Kinda on the same topic, but ah straying for now.  Today I did not do justice to to my company.  I look at everyone of those Mike Holding clipping and also the best four fast bowlers in the world.

I am now wondering where does Wes Hall fit in this Fast bowling thing.  Ah doh think he was one of the best four.

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#22 Jul 05, 2017 5:05 pm

Slice
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Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

yep about the sanctions  and embargo on SA, but guess who continued to do business with SA?  That is one of the reasons I do not like Israel.

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#23 Jul 05, 2017 5:14 pm

New Historian
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Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

Yes worldwide pressure helped, not saying it didn't, but those Boers could've lived on for decades were it not for the fact that the streets were becoming ungovernable. I know all about the international pressure, I was there demonstrating outside the SA Embassy in Trafalgar Square, demos in Kingston, boycotts.

The West Indies took a tougher stance than England, because it affected us a lot more deeply. How many tours nearly collapsed because the English only paid lip service to sanctions? Robin Jackman, Tony ("make them grovel") Greig, Zola Budd - remember them? Why did the South Africans target the rebel Windies? Because that was a huge propaganda coup, that's why.

In those days cricketers played for peanuts, you played for pride. The only top of the line cricketer they got was Rowe, all the others were has-beens or never-beens. No sympathy, they should have stuck to principals and not been so damn licky-licky!

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#24 Jul 05, 2017 5:24 pm

gripe
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Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

Slice, I will clarify, to the extent necessary, that I am not supporting what our "rebels" did. My big issue is the irony that as Blacks, they were in fact treated much differently than the English "rebels" who did the same thing.

Challenge to the Lifetime Bans:

I discussed the issue with one of my colleagues at work who then inquired whether our "rebels" ever challenged their RIDICULOUS lifetime bans. I have not found any information on that; it should be a good research topic. There are great arguments to have those bans withdrawn.

We can find a good lesson from South Africa regarding this issue instead of forever beating our "rebels" over their heads. It is this: post-Apartheid South Africa saw the establishment of the "Truth & Reconciliation Commission" to right Apartheid-related wrongs within South Africa. According to one source: "The TRC was a crucial component of the transition to full and free democracy in South Africa and, despite some flaws, is generally regarded as very successful." See: http://www.sahistory.org.za/topic/truth … ission-trc

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#25 Jul 05, 2017 5:43 pm

Calypso
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Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

In those days cricketers played for peanuts, you played for pride. The only top of the line cricketer they got was Rowe, all the others were has-beens or never-beens. No sympathy, they should have stuck to principals and not been so damn licky-licky!
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I considered what when the so-called "Rebel" players went to South Africa, they did play for pride, as you put it. Blacks have always considered to be an "inferior" race by whites, When those black players played against their white counterpart and scored victory, they were seen as having superior sportsmanship. I am sure that many whites were shocked by their superior sportsmanship!

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#26 Jul 05, 2017 6:56 pm

Slice
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Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

gripe, knowing the situation then, ah doh care how you put it, these BASTARDS will never be forgiven in my book.  they sold their souls, and in so doing, attempted to sell the Caribbean.

Not every man is for sale.  I think it is extremely important to remember the mood of the caribbean back then.

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#27 Jul 05, 2017 7:16 pm

Calypso
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Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

Slice wrote:

gripe, knowing the situation then, ah doh care how you put it, these BASTARDS will never be forgiven in my book.  they sold their souls, and in so doing, attempted to sell the Caribbean.

Not every man is for sale.  I think it is extremely important to remember the mood of the caribbean back then.



But to be banished from playing the sports is a little too harsh isn't it?

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#28 Jul 05, 2017 7:40 pm

Calypso
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Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

Calypso wrote:
Slice wrote:

gripe, knowing the situation then, ah doh care how you put it, these BASTARDS will never be forgiven in my book.  they sold their souls, and in so doing, attempted to sell the Caribbean.

Not every man is for sale.  I think it is extremely important to remember the mood of the caribbean back then.



But to be banished from playing the sports is a little too harsh isn't it?


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or … df5552.jpg


The Four Horsemen of Apocalypse : Roberts, Holding, Croft and Garner. Eat your heart out!

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#29 Jul 05, 2017 8:34 pm

New Historian
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Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

Slice wrote:

gripe, knowing the situation then, ah doh care how you put it, these BASTARDS will never be forgiven in my book.  they sold their souls, and in so doing, attempted to sell the Caribbean.

Not every man is for sale.  I think it is extremely important to remember the mood of the caribbean back then.


EXACTLY! The mood in the late 70s and early 80s was NOT sympathetic to the Rebels, this was the time of the Soweto uprising, we were bombarded with grisly pictures of Hector Petersen bleeding as he died in another man's arms. We were "at virtual war" step by step with the ANC, and here we have these BLACK, WEST INDIAN cricketers, taking the Kruger Rands, kow-towing to the apartheid rulers, accepting "honorary wite" status. [f word] them.

We felt, strongly, that we had been let down, betrayed even. And as for a "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" for the rebels, oh please, it's not that a big deal. They are the forgotten men, no need to give them belated hero status. This is the first place I've ever seen so much support voiced for that bunch of greedy losers.

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#30 Jul 05, 2017 9:45 pm

gripe
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Re: When we were Kings: Whispering Death

New Historian, you are losing me real fast with your reasoning. You seem to be partly justifying the harsh treatment of the West Indian "rebels" with the zero-tolerance mood at the time regarding those who showed any sympathies for Apartheid. But, we are in 2017, New Historian. We are in a new time and place; South Africa has moved on!

That is why the TRC reference is so relevant. Notably, the "rebels" did not kill anyone; yet, there is the unfortunate, unnerving, sense -- from their harsh treatment and your refusal even now to show some compassion -- that the degree of punishment should survive any serious scrutiny as to their fairness.

Think about some of the questions that you posed earlier about what the "rebels" gained. Ask yourself: what is being gained by leaving the lifetime bans in place?

And, yes, New Historian, it is a serious issue evidenced, at least, by your unwavering position that the punishment was warranted.

I ask, in closing, who among us is free of human shortcomings? And, who among us do not, occasionally,need some forgiveness for mistakes both big and small?

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